True name of the Messiah.

[Radagast]

After studying the bible with the aid of a concordance, I found out that the Hebrew name of the Messiah is Yehowshuwa. When I talk to Christians about this, it is like it doesn't matter to them, they will still call him Jesus.

Jews in Palestine in Jesus' time spoke Aramaic and Greek, not Hebrew, so to speak of "the Hebrew name of the Messiah" is a little nonsensical.

The New Testament was written in Greek (not Hebrew) and records the name "Iēsous," which has been Anglicised as "Jesus." That's what we use in English.

But why does this concern you, anyway? I see from your faith icon and from your wording that you're not a Christian.

 

[Radagast]

The name was changed to Iesus so Romans would follow the religion

Nonsense. There was no "change."

What's funny is that the name "Jesus" has the word Zeus sneaked in on the end (Ie-zeus) which is why it was a Roman name

That's really is utterly ridiculous. The name "Iēsous" is not derived from "Zeus" in any way (and, btw, "Zeus" is not a Roman name).

There are very few letters in common between Ἰησοῦς and Ζεύς, for a start, and the name "Iēsous" is in fact the Greek form of the Hebrew "Joshua." Long before Jesus' day, Jews were reading the Scriptures in Greek translation (the Septuagint), and "Iēsous" is the name for Joshua in those Scriptures. The name means "Jehovah saves."

 

[Dave-W]

Something like that. The name Ieseus literally means "Zeus heals".

That is absolutely not true. Just because it happens to sound like something in another language does not make it so.

I knew of a kid who came to the US from S. VietNam when we pulled our troops out. His name was pronounced exactly like an english cuss word for sexual intercourse.

Did that mean that his name was actually an obcenity? Of course not.

Lifting a pronounciation from one language system and plopping it down in another is just WRONG.

 

[Freodin]

Funny fact: "Zeus" is not even a personal name in that way. It means simply "god" as a derivate of an indoeuropean sourceword from which "deity" also comes.

 

[Radagast]

Funny fact: "Zeus" is not even a personal name in that way. It means simply "god" as a derivate of an indoeuropean sourceword from which "deity" also comes.

Well, "Zeus" is in fact the personal name for the most significant god of the Greek Pantheon.

You are correct as to etymology, however. The Germanic god Tiw (from whom Tuesday is named) has the same etymology as Zeus, although the ancient Germanic tribes saw Tiw as corresponding to Mars/Ares rather than to Jupiter/Zeus.

In general, meaning and etymology are two different things.

 

[Called out]

Pop into a Messianic area and perhaps you will be more likely to find those who use the name Yeshua, Yeshua ha Messhiach, etc.

One of my disappointments with the Messianic's is that they use the name Yeshua, which is incorrect. The bible states that the messiah came in his Father's name, Yehowshuwa means Yehowah's loud call. Yeshua does not have the Father's name in it. It is claimed that it is an Aramaic or common alternative name, or a shortened form, but it is not the true Hebrew name.

 

[Freodin]

Well, "Zeus" is in fact the personal name for the most significant god of the Greek Pantheon.

You are correct as to etymology, however. The Germanic god Tiw (from whom Tuesday is named) has the same etymology as Zeus, although the ancient Germanic tribes saw Tiw as corresponding to Mars/Ares rather than to Jupiter/Zeus.

In general, meaning and etymology are two different things.

The correspondence between germanic and romanic/greek deities is a little difficult... and in the case you mentions, rather the opposite. The ancient Romans saw "Tiw" (or Tiu, or Tyr) as corresponding to Mars/Ares.

It is very likely that Tiw/Tiu/Tyr was originally the "main" deity of the germanic people, the same "sky father" that Jupiter, Zeus and all the other "Tiwaz" derived deities were. As the Odin / Wodan cult became more popular, he was replaced in this main role and relegated to lesser roles as judge, protector and warrior... thus the comparison to Mars.

It is comparable - if different for the monotheistic basis - of the change of the sole YHWH to the triune Jesus-God.

Even gods evolve.

 

[Radagast]

It is very likely that Tiw/Tiu/Tyr was originally the "main" deity of the germanic people, the same "sky father" that Jupiter, Zeus and all the other "Tiwaz" derived deities were. As the Odin / Wodan cult became more popular, he was replaced in this main role and relegated to lesser roles as judge, protector and warrior... thus the comparison to Mars.

That seems plausible.

 

[SuperCloud]

After studying the bible with the aid of a concordance, I found out that the Hebrew name of the Messiah is Yehowshuwa. When I talk to Christians about this, it is like it doesn't matter to them, they will still call him Jesus. And the preachers baptize people in the name of Jesus. Is that not a lie?
I just do not understand why? And why no one cares?
Here is a link for those who have no idea about the Messiah's true Hebrew name. Yehowshuwa, the True Hebrew Name of the Messiah, the Son of the Almighty God.

Jesus supposedly spoke Aramaic. There are still Christians that speak and liturgically worship in the Aramaic language.

My understanding is that the name Jesus is the Greek translation.

 

[Radagast]

One of my disappointments with the Messianic's is that they use the name Yeshua, which is incorrect. The bible states that the messiah came in his Father's name, Yehowshuwa means Yehowah's loud call. Yeshua does not have the Father's name in it. It is claimed that it is an Aramaic or common alternative name, or a shortened form, but it is not the true Hebrew name.

Where do you get this stuff?

Neither "Yeshua" nor "Yehowshuwa" occur in the New Testament. If by "Yehowshuwa" you mean יְהוֹשׁוּעַ, that's the name generally written "Joshua" in English, but in Greek it's "Iēsous." It does not mean "Yehowah's loud call." Rather, it means Jehovah saves (or, more correctly, YHWH saves).

Also, I believe you're misinterpreting John 5:43.

And Jews in Jesus' time spoke Aramaic and Greek, as I said before.

 

[SuperCloud]

It's pronounced yesh-oo-ah with stress on the yesh. It's not hard to pronounce for nearly anyone. The name was changed to Iesus so Romans would follow the religion (he needed a good non-Jewish name after all). Over time Iesus became Jesus.

What's funny is that the name "Jesus" has the word Zeus sneaked in on the end (Ie-zeus) which is why it was a Roman name, and Christians are completely clueless that when they cry out in the name of Jesus, they're crying out to Zeus.

Jezeus.

I see you're flag is American. Are "Americans" "clueless" that when they cry out they're Americans they're really crying out they're Italians?

Christopher Columbus never found that route (original blocked off by the Muslim Turks) to India and never landed in India. So, are Americans (Italians apparently) clueless that when they speak of "Indians" in mainland USA they're really calling those indigenous peoples Hindus?

Words only have what meaning you give them.

 

[SuperCloud]

Why would Yeshua have responded to a name that wasn't his and wasn't a translation for his name?

Why would Anglo-Saxons in New England respond to the name, nationality of American, when they're not Italians?

 

[SuperCloud]

Nonsense. There was no "change."



That's really is utterly ridiculous. The name "Iēsous" is not derived from "Zeus" in any way (and, btw, "Zeus" is not a Roman name).

There are very few letters in common between Ἰησοῦς and Ζεύς, for a start, and the name "Iēsous" is in fact the Greek form of the Hebrew "Joshua." Long before Jesus' day, Jews were reading the Scriptures in Greek translation (the Septuagint), and "Iēsous" is the name for Joshua in those Scriptures. The name means "Jehovah saves."

Thank you for that informative post, Radagast.

 

[Called out]

Jews in Palestine in Jesus' time spoke Aramaic and Greek, not Hebrew, so to speak of "the Hebrew name of the Messiah" is a little nonsensical.

The New Testament was written in Greek (not Hebrew) and records the name "Iēsous," which has been Anglicised as "Jesus." That's what we use in English.

But why does this concern you, anyway? I see from your faith icon and from your wording that you're not a Christian.

I studied a lot about the bible and believe it. But when I came across John 1:41, where Andrew claims that they have found the Messias, which is a Greek word for the Hebrew word Mashiyach. The Latin Vulgate translates it as Messium. Then all of a sudden we have the translators calling him Christ. It is the translators that have added and changed the word to Christ. That is why I don't like the term Christian.

It is also said that the poor people if Palestine spoke Hebrew, only the upper class spoke Aramaic. And when the Hebrew people and the Messiah read from the Torah, they spoke Hebrew. I find this very important.

That is why I am asking if there is a problem for Christians to stop calling him Jesus Christ, and call him by his true Hebrew name translated into English as Yehowshuwa who is the Messiah.

 

[Radagast]

I studied a lot about the bible and believe it. But when I came across John 1:41, where Andrew claims that they have found the Messias, which is a Greek word for the Hebrew word Mashiyach. The Latin Vulgate translates it as Messium. Then all of a sudden we have the translators calling him Christ. It is the translators that have added and changed the word to Christ.

Not true. John 1:41 says: "He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, 'We have found the Messiah {Μεσσίαν = Messian}' (which means Christ {ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον Χριστός})."

The note in parentheses ("which means Christ") is in the ancient manuscripts. It was clearly added by the author in the original, for the benefit of non-Jewish readers who didn't know the word "Messias." John is writing in Greek here, but is presumably reporting a conversation that happened in Aramaic.

It is also said that the poor people if Palestine spoke Hebrew, only the upper class spoke Aramaic.

Nonsense. They all spoke either Aramaic or Greek (or both).

And when the Hebrew people and the Messiah read from the Torah, they spoke Hebrew.

That is very dubious. Most Jews in the 1st century read the Torah in Greek (the Septuagint version). Most of the time, it's the Greek Septuagint that the New Testament is quoting.

That is why I am asking if there is a problem for Christians to stop calling him Jesus Christ

Are you serious?

No, we will continue to use the name "Jesus Christ," as we have done for 2,000 years, because that's the name that the New Testament uses.

 

[BL2KTN]

Till I Collapse, there's a ton for me to respond to and I'm not sure I can go very in-depth with you on the subject today. I'll try tomorrow. For the rest:

Nonsense. There was no "change."

The Hebrew name of the one you believe to be the messiah was Yeshua. How do you think it went from Yeshua to Iesous without changing?

That's really is utterly ridiculous. The name "Iēsous" is not derived from "Zeus" in any way (and, btw, "Zeus" is not a Roman name).

The ending "sous" is the same set of phonemes as in the name Zeus, and the common Greek name Iēsous for Romans of the time literally means "Zeus heals".

There are very few letters in common between Ἰησοῦς and Ζεύς, for a start, and the name "Iēsous" is in fact the Greek form of the Hebrew "Joshua." Long before Jesus' day, Jews were reading the Scriptures in Greek translation (the Septuagint), and "Iēsous" is the name for Joshua in those Scriptures. The name means "Jehovah saves."

You are incorrect. The Greek spelling of Joshua (originally Yahoshu'a in Hebrew) is Ἰησοῦs. The Greek pronunciation of the word Ἰησοῦs is Yes-oo-a (there is no h sound in Greek and thus it and its vowel have to dropped).

That is absolutely not true. Just because it happens to sound like something in another language does not make it so.

I knew of a kid who came to the US from S. VietNam when we pulled our troops out. His name was pronounced exactly like an english cuss word for sexual intercourse.

Did that mean that his name was actually an obcenity? Of course not.

Lifting a pronounciation from one language system and plopping it down in another is just WRONG.

It isn't lifting languages: Iesous is a Greek name common for Romans, and the ending "sous" is the Greek phonemes for Zeus.

Funny fact: "Zeus" is not even a personal name in that way. It means simply "god" as a derivate of an indoeuropean sourceword from which "deity" also comes.

Which is very similar to how El in Hebrew refers to the chief god within the Canaanite pantheon, but can also refer generically to a god as well.

One of my disappointments with the Messianic's is that they use the name Yeshua, which is incorrect. The bible states that the messiah came in his Father's name, Yehowshuwa means Yehowah's loud call. Yeshua does not have the Father's name in it. It is claimed that it is an Aramaic or common alternative name, or a shortened form, but it is not the true Hebrew name.

The Hebrew name הוֹשׁוּעַ which English speakers know as Joshua simply means "Yahweh saves". I don't know what the heck "Yehowah" is.

I see you're flag is American. Are "Americans" "clueless" that when they cry out they're Americans they're really crying out they're Italians?

"America" is derived from Latinized Italian. And yes, I would say the number of Americans who know that is less than 1%.

Christopher Columbus never found that route (original blocked off by the Muslim Turks) to India and never landed in India. So, are Americans (Italians apparently) clueless that when they speak of "Indians" in mainland USA they're really calling those indigenous peoples Hindus?

Some are clueless. However, this is the reason for the push for the term "native american".

Words only have what meaning you give them.

If this were true, communication would be impossible. Smeeka wop wop goo da muhallalawafa.

Why would Anglo-Saxons in New England respond to the name, nationality of American, when they're not Italians?

The word "American" is English. The word "Iesous" was Greek. Yeshua spoke Aramaic.

Most of the time, it's the Greek Septuagint that the New Testament is quoting.

And that's because the New Testament was written by Paul and Greeks. The actual Jewish gospels were purposefully destroyed and kept out of the cannon.

 

[TillICollapse]

Till I Collapse, there's a ton for me to respond to and I'm not sure I can go very in-depth with you on the subject today. I'll try tomorrow.

No worries, and even if you don't get to it, no problem.

However if you do, one point from your responses here to others, which may speak to the crux anyways:

The Greek spelling of Joshua (originally Yahoshu'a in Hebrew) is Ἰησοῦs. The Greek pronunciation of the word Ἰησοῦs is Yes-oo-a (there is no h sound in Greek and thus it and its vowel have to dropped).

Did you exchange the English "s" for the Greek sigma at the end of Ἰησοῦs on purpose or by accident ?

Regardless, with Ἰησοῦς are you saying the sigma at the end should be pronounced as though it were an "a" as in alpha, or perhaps that in everyday speech the sigma was ignored ?

 

[BL2KTN]

Regardless, with Ἰησοῦς are you saying the sigma at the end should be pronounced as though it were an "a" as in alpha, or perhaps that in everyday speech the sigma was ignored ?

Much like French, the Koine Greek language tends to drop the "s" sound at the end of words. In the case of Iesous, this would not have been the case as "sous" refers to Zeus, which requires the "s" be pronounced.

 

[TillICollapse]

Much like French, the Koine Greek language tends to drop the "s" sound at the end of words. In the case of Iesous, this would not have been the case as "sous" refers to Zeus, which requires the "s" be pronounced.

So then what is the Greek of spelling of Yes-oo-a which you are saying Yeshua would have been called by in Koine Greek ?

 

[tansy]

Well, Jesus seems to answer us, however we pronounce His name, so I don't know that it makes an awful lot of difference. Though clearly, the discussion on the derivations of words is interesting.