True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour?

Well, I have already answered this before. I also had explained my position multiple times but you either do not believe it or you missed it.

Anyways, as for answering your questions, here you go, my friend:

Q #1. Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour?
A #1. Paul needed a Savior (like all men do) because he had sin on his past record (Which started with the rebellion of Adam). Paul's past sins had separated him between him and God. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator so as to restore that broken relationship that was caused by sin. Paul like everyone else had to repent of his sins, receive Christ into his heart, and believe that Jesus died, was buried, and was risen so as to save him. From that point on, Christ (in whom he had received into his heart) would then do the "good works" in Paul. Paul said this several times that it is Christ (and not himself) that had laboured or worked. In other words, Jesus lived inside of Paul and Jesus was the One who helped Paul to obey His Word and to do acts of righteousness. For Jesus said, without Him we can do nothing.

Another reason why Paul needed a Savior is because Adam passed down a sin nature upon the entire human race, too. Jesus, who is the second Adam would be the new Federal Head of a people of righteousness whereby He would transform or regenerate Paul (and other's) spirits and hearts so as to help them to yield to Christ working in their lives so as to glorify the works of the LORD (and not the works of Paul). Paul would be "born again" and renewed spiritually and would no longer have a natural mind (that cannot understand and or do the things of God).

Another reason why the saint needs the Savior is because if they honestly do struggle with sin or commit grevious sin like David did, they have God's mercy and grace to fall back upon; Not as a license to sin, but as a way to help them to overcome it. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For it is the reason why we have an advocate (1 John 2:1). But this leads to walking in the light or in Christ's righteousness or God doing the "good work" in our lives (Whereby the blood cleanses us) (See 1 John 1:7).

How does Christs death at Calvary help Paul?

Q. #2. How does Christ's death at Calvary help Paul?
A. #2. Well, it was more than just Christ's death that helps Paul.

Jesus (Who is the spotless Lamb and who is sinless) took on our sins in the cup witin the Garden Gethsemane. He later was beaten and whipped. Isaiah says, he was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Christ was then crucified and the Father laid all Judgment of sin upon Him and He died for all of mankind's sins so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights; And then Christ conquered sin and death with His resurrection. Jesus then ascended to the Father (After telling Mary not to touch Him), and entered the Holy Temple up in Heaven by his blood so as to be our mediator and or Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man. Jesus restores our broken fellowship with God whereby He can live inside us.

Side Note:

Oh, and God showed me a parallel involving Joseph and Jesus. For Christ taking on our sin in the Garden can be seen in the story of Joseph. For Judah took on Benjamin's guilt of the cup within his bag and was willing to go to prison (i.e. take punishment) in Benjamin's place for a sin that Benjamin did not do (See Genesis 44).

For he could faultlessly obey as a Pharisee the law you say Christ died to annul. But he could not obey the law you say the christian has a righteousness before God of obeying. So if you are correct as to the christian having a righteousness before God of obeying the ten commandments, what benefit did the apostle Paul gain by Christs death at Calvary? Can you address this point, or not?
Why did Paul need a saviour from sin concerning the law he could faultlessly obey?

A believer cannot faultlessly obey God on his own effort. This is what the Jews tried to do by obeying a false salvation system of just trying to obey the Law as a way to Heaven (without any grace or relationship with the LORD). A believer does not ultimately do the "good work." It is God who ultimately does the "good work" in the believer whereby the believer gives glory to God for any fruit or good done in their life (By the LORD). There is no boasting. There is no desiring to be famous and shouting... "Hey, everybody! Look at me!" The 24 elders will cast their crowns down before Jesus because it was Christ working in them to do mighty things in the their faith like obeying God's Laws and in loving (like only the LORD can love). For there is none good but God.


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[stuart lawrence]

Well, I have already answered this before. I also had explained my position multiple times but you either do not believe it or you missed it.

Anyways, as for answering your questions, here you go, my friend:

Q #1. Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour?
A #1. Paul needed a Savior (like all men do) because he had sin on his past record (Which started with the rebellion of Adam). Paul's past sins had separated him between him and God. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator so as to restore that broken relationship that was caused by sin. Paul like everyone else had to repent of his sins, receive Christ into his heart, and believe that Jesus died, was buried, and was risen so as to save him. From that point on, Christ (in whom he had received into his heart) would then do the "good works" in Paul. Paul said this several times that it is Christ (and not himself) that had laboured or worked. In other words, Jesus lived inside of Paul and Jesus was the One who helped Paul to obey His Word and to do acts of righteousness. For Jesus said, without Him we can do nothing.

Another reason why Paul needed a Savior is because Adam passed down a sin nature upon the entire human race, too. Jesus, who is the second Adam would be the new Federal Head of a people of righteousness whereby He would transform or regenerate Paul (and other's) spirits and hearts so as to help them to yield to Christ working in their lives so as to glorify the works of the LORD (and not the works of Paul). Paul would be "born again" and renewed spiritually and would no longer have a natural mind (that cannot understand and or do the things of God).

Another reason why the saint needs the Savior is because if they honestly do struggle with sin or commit grevious sin like David did, they have God's mercy and grace to fall back upon; Not as a license to sin, but as a way to help them to overcome it. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For it is the reason why we have an advocate (1 John 2:1). But this leads to walking in the light or in Christ's righteousness or God doing the "good work" in our lives (Whereby the blood cleanses us) (See 1 John 1:7).



Q. #2. How does Christ's death at Calvary help Paul?
A. #2. Well, it was more than just Christ's death that helps Paul.

Jesus (Who is the spotless Lamb and who is sinless) took on our sins in the cup witin the Garden Gethsemane. He later was beaten and whipped. Isaiah says, he was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Christ was then crucified and the Father laid all Judgment of sin upon Him and He died for all of mankind's sins so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights; And then Christ conquered sin and death with His resurrection. Jesus then ascended to the Father (After telling Mary not to touch Him), and entered the Holy Temple up in Heaven by his blood so as to be our mediator and or Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man. Jesus restores our broken fellowship with God whereby He can live inside us.

Side Note:

Oh, and God showed me a parallel involving Joseph and Jesus. For Christ taking on our sin in the Garden can be seen in the story of Joseph. For Judah took on Benjamin's guilt of the cup within his bag and was willing to go to prison (i.e. take punishment) in Benjamin's place for a sin that Benjamin did not do (See Genesis 44).



as for zeal,J)'> persecuting the church;K)'> as for righteousness based on the law,L)'> faultlessn (without any grace or relationship with the LORD). A believer does not ultimately do the "good work." It is God who ultimately does the "good work" in the believer whereby the believer gives glory to God for any fruit or good done in their life (By the LORD). There is no boasting. There is no desiring to be famous and shouting... "Hey, everybody! Look at me!" The 24 elders will cast their crowns down before Jesus because it was Christ working in them to do mighty things in the their faith like obeying God's Laws and in loving (like only the LORD can love). For there is none good but God.


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Anyways, as for answering your questions, here you go, my friend:

Q #1. Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour?
A #1. Paul needed a Savior (like all men do) because he had sin on his past record (Which started with the rebellion of Adam). Paul's past sins had separated him between him and God.

as for zeal persecuting the church as for righteousness (legalistic)based on the law, faultless Phil3:6

You are not understanding the point. Paul never did need a saviour from the legalistic law, for he faultlessly obeyed it. He needed a saviour from the moral law for he could not perfectly obey it(Romans7:8) Yet you say Paul got a saviour from the legalistic law which he could perfectly obey, but not the moral law which he could not perfectly obey.
Now Paul said
''sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.''
According to you that only applies to the legalistic law. Paul did not need to be under grace to obey the legalistic law for he could faultlessly obey it as a Pharisee. And if he was still under a law of righteousness concerning the moral law sin must remain his master according to what he wrote.

Now these are undeniable facts, but you will not accept them. Jason, you have to put the truth of the word first, not your determination to be proved right when you are wrong

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

Anyways, as for answering your questions, here you go, my friend:

Q #1. Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour?
A #1. Paul needed a Savior (like all men do) because he had sin on his past record (Which started with the rebellion of Adam). Paul's past sins had separated him between him and God.

as for zeal persecuting the church as for righteousness (legalistic)based on the law, faultless Phil3:6

You are not understanding the point. Paul never did need a saviour from the legalistic law, for he faultlessly obeyed it. He needed a saviour from the moral law for he could not perfectly obey it(Romans7:8) Yet you say Paul got a saviour from the legalistic law which he could perfectly obey, but not the moral law which he could not perfectly obey.
Now Paul said
''sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.''
According to you that only applies to the legalistic law. Paul did not need to be under grace to obey the legalistic law for he could faultlessly obey it as a Pharisee. And if he was still under a law of righteousness concerning the moral law sin must remain his master according to what he wrote.

Now these are undeniable facts, but you will not accept them. Jason, you have to put the truth of the word first, not your determination to be proved right when you are wrong

I can say that you have been proven wrong multiple times. First, you will never be able to make a parable or real world example of OSAS. Second, in the book of Romans and Galatians: When I showed you the context that Paul is talking about "circumcision" which is of the Law of Moses or the Old Testament Law, you just ignore it. Third, when I tell you 1 Timothy 6:3-4, you again ignore it. Four, you also do not plainly believe Matthew 6:15 and 1 John 3:15. For you failed to explain how you can disregard them. Five, you also fail to realize that Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Commandments are laws. If Paul said that what he writes should be regarded as God’s Commands, then how can there be no law whatsoever. You say you are not lawless, yet you also say you are not under any kind of law. Sounds like a contradiction to me. You are either under some kind of law or you are not under any kind of law (Which is lawlessness).

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[Bible Highlighter]

Furthermore, you keep ignoring what I say and tell me it is my own human effort that saves me, when nothing could be further from the truth. I believe God does the work in the believer. So please stop trying to falsely accuse me of something I do not believe.


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[stuart lawrence]

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I can say that you have been proven wrong multiple times. First, you will never be able to make a parable or real world example of OSAS. Second, in the book of Romans and Galatians: When I showed you the context that Paul is talking about "circumcision" which is of the Law of Moses or the Old Testament Law, you just ignore it. Third, when I tell you 1 Timothy 6:3-4, you again ignore it. Four, you also do not plainly believe Matthew 6:15 and 1 John 3:15. For you failed to explain how you can disregard them. Five, you also fail to realize that Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Commandments are laws. If Paul said that what he writes should be regarded as God’s Commands, then how can there be no law whatsoever. You say you are not lawless, yet you also say you are not under any kind of law. Sounds like a contradiction to me. You are either under some kind of law or you are not under any kind of law (Which is lawlessness).

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Once again you have not responded to the point made.
I never said there were no laws or commandments and you will not find a post of mine where I stated that. I believe Paul. Law exists but I am not under a law of righteousness before God.
Do you honestly believe in Rom 7:14-25 Paul is speaking of the legalistic law, not the moral law? I do not know of any Christian who would believe that!!!
The law got transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) because it did, the penalty for your imperfections concerning it got removed, hence you are not under law but under grace. The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:56) The true power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it for through that penalty many sinful passions are aroused in you(Rom 7:5) and through that penalty sin has the power to condemn you to hell.

Therefore, Christ died to pay your sin debt, he paid the penalty of your sin, and by doing so removed the true power of sin from your life. But though he paid the penalty of your sin, the law God requires you to keep remains intact on your heart, so it is not possible to use such grace as a licence to sin
Therefore, the born again Christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition for sin-which is what opposes obedience has been dealt a fatal blow by Christ dying to remove its true power from a converts life. Hence Paul states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31


Will you accept the above Jason? No! But it is the true message

 

[stuart lawrence]

Furthermore, you keep ignoring what I say and tell me it is my own human effort that saves me, when nothing could be further from the truth. I believe God does the work in the believer. So please stop trying to falsely accuse me of something I do not believe.


...

I am afraid it is you Jason not feeling able to answer the points I raise. Until you accept there is no law of righteousness full stop you will never properly understand the Gospel message, or be able to answer questions put to you concerning it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Furthermore, you keep ignoring what I say and tell me it is my own human effort that saves me, when nothing could be further from the truth. I believe God does the work in the believer. So please stop trying to falsely accuse me of something I do not believe.


...

So whos fault is it when the believer fails? You will have to respond the believer. Therefore if it is the believers fault if they fail, the believer will want some of the credit when they do not fail

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A person has to choose this day in whom they will serve. We are also to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if one has no fear of the Lord? Anyways, it's about surrendering to the Lord whereby He does the work in you.


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[JLB777]

"JOHN 15:6. This passage does not say that a true believer will be cast into Hell; it says that the person who proves not to be a true believer will be cast into Hell.

Actually this verse shows us a person can be in Christ, then later can be disconnected from Christ, and thrown into the fire and be burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Please explain how a person comes to be in Christ, yet never believes?

Jesus teaches us that believing is how we are saved.

It is those who do not believe, as illustrated in this teaching, who are not saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

the devil takes away the word, out of their hearts... lest they believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


In the next example, this group receive the word with joy, as they have believed... but they only believe for a while.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

A person who believes for a while, believes temporarily.
A person who believes for a while, then stops believing, has become an unbeliever.


John 15:6 teaches us there will be those who are in fact in Him, but do not remain in Him, for they are gathered up and thrown into the fire.


Please show us the scripture whereby a person can come to be in Christ, but is never saved.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

A person has to choose this day in whom they will serve. We are also to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if one has no fear of the Lord? Anyways, it's about surrendering to the Lord whereby He does the work in you.


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There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.
1John 4:19&20

Where is the love mercy and compassion in your Gospel message Jason. It kind of comes across as God is a thunderbolt thrower who delights in sending people to hell unless they perform perfect.
Now a loving parent, if their child breaks the rules may punish them, but is their place in the family threatened? No!

It seems you believe God does not love his children as much as a parent loves their child. You have a distorted view of God I am afraid

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is a scriptural fact. The harder you try to obey the literal letter to be righteous in God's sight the more of a sinner you become on the inside. The harder you try to observe the law to be righteous before God the more you cut out what is most important in the Christian faith.

Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. lUKE 11:42

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs,which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness Matt23:27&28

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I don't believe it is by my power in obeying the New Testament Commands (and not the ceremonial laws and judicial laws of the Old Testament). I believe it is Christ (God) that does the work in the believer. The believer merely yields or surrenders to Jesus.

As for Romans 7: the problem is not in the moral law that Paul mentions (i.e. coveting). The problem is in trying to justify yourself excuslively by the Law alone without the grace of Jesus Christ and without realizing He ultimately saves us by His sacrifice and by the fact that it is Him that does the good work in us (When we surrender to Him). "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13). But how we are we not under the Condemnation? Romans 8:1 essentially say.... For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit and not after the flesh. What are the works of the flesh (Whereby one would walk by)?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

(Galatians 5:19-23).​

Did you catch the bolded underlined words above? There is no law against those who have the fruit of the Spirit. And....

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Side Note:

Oh, and as for perfect love casting out fear: This is after a believer goes thru the sanctification process with the LORD. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 5:9
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."


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[stuart lawrence]

Well, I don't believe it is by my power in obeying the New Testament Commands (and not the ceremonial laws and judicial laws of the Old Testament). I believe it is Christ (God) that does the work in the believer. The believer merely yields or surrenders to Jesus.

As for Romans 7: the problem is not in the moral law that Paul mentions (i.e. coveting). The problem is in trying to justify yourself excuslively by the Law alone without the grace of Jesus Christ and without realizing it is Him that does the good work in us (When we surrender to Him). For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit and not after the flesh. What are the works of the flesh (Whereby one would walk by)?

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

(Galatians 5:19-23).​

Did you catch the bolded underlined words above? There is no law against those who have the fruit of the Spirit. And... And.... wait for it....

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Side Note:

Oh, and as for perfect love casting out fear: This is after a believer goes thru the sanctification process with the LORD. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.


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Your last paragraph is awful Jason, I would suggest you remove it.
You are right about romans 7, the problem is not in the moral law, it is seeking justification by it that is the problem, your usage of the word alone changes nothing. As you believe in a righteousness before God of obedience to the law you leave the sincere and honest convert susceptible to what happened to Paul in rom 7.
Your scriptures from gal 5 hinge on knowing you are not under a law of righteousness which you refuse to accept.
I really would take my advice and remove your final paragraph, for it does not show spiritual wisdom and maturity

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your last paragraph is awful Jason, I would suggest you remove it.
You are right about romans 7, the problem is not in the moral law, it is seeking justification by it that is the problem, your usage of the word alone changes nothing. As you believe in a righteousness before God of obedience to the law you leave the sincere and honest convert susceptible to what happened to Paul in rom 7.
Your scriptures from gal 5 hinge on knowing you are not under a law of righteousness which you refuse to accept.
I really would take my advice and remove your final paragraph, for it does not show spiritual wisdom and maturity

Ah, you mean the part where I say... wait for it? I am trying to draw attention to the verse that you obviously are ignoring. But seeing you are easily offended on me trying to make a point with a little bit of humor (and not as an attack against you), I have removed it.

Anyways, I say it is very mild compared to some of the words and false accusations you have said to me so far. In any event, I think it is best we agree to disagree.

Peace be unto you.
And may God bless you.


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[stuart lawrence]

Ok if you want to discuss it. You believe there is no perfect love is not possible until the sanctification process is concluded. That is probably the worst and most misinformed post I have ever read on a chritian debating website

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hebrews 5:9
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."


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What you basically believe Jason is because you do not get drunk, smoke use foul language or have extra marital affairs you obey and are doing great.
And you nay dress smartly when you go to church and recite scripture where you feel t is applicable. And you stress Gods laws must be obeyed. They are the core reasons you believe you are doing well. But there is a problem with that thinking. The Pharisees would have passed all those tests with flying colours and many more

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you basically believe Jason is because you do not get drunk, smoke use foul language or have extra marital affairs you obey and are doing great.
And you nay dress smartly when you go to church and recite scripture where you feel t is applicable. And you stress Gods laws must be obeyed. They are the core reasons you believe you are doing well. But there is a problem with that thinking. The Pharisees would have passed all those tests with flying colours and many more

Well, actually my defense of God's righteousness or Commands does not equate with the Pharisees beliefs. They did not pass all of God's Commands. We have already been over this. The Pharisees did not keep the weightier matters of the Law. You are also falsely accusing me again. Please stop that. It is not nice.



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[stuart lawrence]

Do

Well, actually my defense of God's righteousness or Commands does not equate with the Pharisees beliefs. They did not pass all of God's Commands. We have already been over this. The Pharisees did not keep the weightier matters of the Law. You are also falsely accusing me again. Please stop that. It is not nice.



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Do you think the gospel message of perform perfect or you are in danger of bring cast into hell speaks of love, mercy, compassion, or faithfulness? It is your message that is so damaging Jason. For you are not perfect on the inside are you? Would you call that judging you? It is just being truthful. We none of us are perfect you know. So we should not demand of others what we fail to achieve in our own lives. That is what made Jesus so angry with the religious elite of his day

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe certain believers can honestly struggle with sin. I believe both Samson and Solomon are saved. I believe the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him was saved. The thief on the cross did not need to do any great deeds to be saved.

But Jesus calls sinners to repentance. Jesus is the great physician who came to heal those who are sick spiritually.

Yet, God tests others in their faith with some of those individuals falling away or those who only endure for a while. Yes, God does give us a new heart but we also still have free will, though. We still have to choose this day (and everyone after that) in whom we will serve.

For it is also equally true that God calls us to be perfect and to stop sinning, too.



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