Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security
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I have seen the exact opposite. I have witnessed the dark fruits of OSAS from first hand experience. I have read testimonials of how people are led into feeling trapped by sin. i have read how others committed suicide thinking they would be saved. Even my own life is a testimony against OSAS. But the standard of truth is determined by the Word of God. Also, you cannot make a parable or real world example out of OSAS. I have made this challenge to many and most just scatter or fail at making one.
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stuart lawrence
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Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
OSAS is true bible teaching, But it's also true that there are many false professors of Jesus who do not actually possess Jesus Christ.
May I also remind you that David a man after God's own heart committed adultery and murder.
Saints can and do commit wicked sin.
But a saved child of god will be chastened and miserable in his sin.
May I also remind you that David a man after God's own heart committed adultery and murder.
Saints can and do commit wicked sin.
But a saved child of god will be chastened and miserable in his sin.
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Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
In Ancient Culture around Bible Times, an adopted son could not ever be disowned. It's the same way with our heavenly father, once you are adopted into the family of God, you cannot ever be put out of the family of God.
Ephesians speaks of the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, the word sealed comes from the same Greek word used to denote a King using his signet to stamp a scroll or parchment, the stamp signifying that the command was a done deal.
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If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
We must continue to remain connected in relationship, to Jesus Christ, in order to continue to receive the Eternal Life that comes from Him, as a branch receives the life that comes from the Vine it's connected to.
In verse 6, we see the branch, you, is in Him.
Later the branch is not connected to the Vine, and is gathered up and throw into the fire and burned.
JLB
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Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
The whole John 15 argument, I've seen this one before. Here we go:
"JOHN 15:6. This passage does not say that a true believer will be cast into Hell; it says that the person who proves not to be a true believer will be cast into Hell. Those who teach that this applies to a true believer read that interpretation into it. The rest of John’s Gospel makes this matter very plain. Consider John 1:12,13; 3:14-18,36; 4:14; 5:25; 6:37,40,47; 10:27-30; 11:25; 17:2,3; 20:31. Whatever, therefore, the meaning of John 15:6 in reference to the child of God, it CANNOT mean that the true believer will be rejected and cast into Hell. That would make the promises of Jesus Christ to the believer into a lie. Christ is referring here to the difference between sincere and insincere, true and false believers. He mentions such a thing in other passages in John’s Gospel. Consider John 2:23-25 and 6:64. John 15 is a warning that the evidence of true faith in Christ is to bear fruit for His glory. "
if someone is going to be justified by the Law, he is obligated to keep every single point, because under the Old Testament according to Deuteronomy a curse was placed on those who failed to keep ALL of the law. Under the New Covenant we are justified by the fact that Christ kept and fulfilled the Law completey and his righteousness is imputed unto us the moment we place our faith in Christ for the first time. We can apply this to your situation, because you claim that we must abide in Christ and maintain our salvation, if that is true, then I would like to point a few things out. first, if you are going to claim that, then you are obligated to keep the all of the commandments of Christ perfectly, the only way to abide in Christ according to John 15 is to not have any sin in your heart at all times, this would mean every single time that you have a sinful thought, you are now not abiding in Christ, and according to you, this means every time you sin you lose your salvation, if you want to claim that abiding in Christ. And if you really know yourself, this will cause you to realize that it is basically impossible for you to keep your own salvation, because you still have the sin nature that takes control of you at times.
So how many times a day do you lose your salvation?
Everytime you have a wicked thought, you have lost your salvation (according to your theology)
you are doing nothing more than teaching works salvation veiled in different terminology, you are no different than a Catholic who believes he has to take his sacraments and have his last rites, and confess all his sins before he dies.
Repent of your false doctrine.
you have fallen from grace in the true sense of this prase and the sense is not in losing your salvation, you have fallen from the true faith, by adding self effort to simple faith in Christ. Repent.
BTW, I noticed you ignored the scriptures I quote that are clear and plain, I have referenced plenty that are very plain and clear. Deal with those contextual instead of acting like Cultists do with their scripture circle game, the Jehovah's Witnesses act the same way when you show them clear teaching on the Deity of Christ.
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Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
JohN 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. t should raise it up again at the last day.
So according to you Jesus is a liar? cause he actually can lose us?
What an attack on the character of God you make with your false doctrine of conditional security.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. t should raise it up again at the last day.
So according to you Jesus is a liar? cause he actually can lose us?
What an attack on the character of God you make with your false doctrine of conditional security.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Dear Stuart:
Well, I have been extremely busy lately and I did not get time to fully reply to all of what you have written.
Anyways, there are a couple of quick points I want to bring up again with some new ones (that will hopefully explain where I am coming from):
Sin is defined in the Bible as transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). A Law is also known as a Commandment or Command. There are 1,050 + New Testament Commands (i.e. the Law of Christ) and 613 Old Testament Commands (i.e. the Law of Moses). Even Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).
Christian Assemblies International's List of New Testament Commands:
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands
New Testament Commands (that I did not find on their list):
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html
The 613 Old Testament Laws:
http://www.jewfaq.org/m/613.htm
Also, today, believers of the Holy Scriptures follow the Commands given to them in the New Testament and they do not seek to go back and follow the Law of Moses. Granted, all the moral laws have been carried on over from the Old on into the New, but none of the ceremonial laws or judicial laws have transferred over. For the Scriptures say there was a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12). For Jesus Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). For shortly before Christ was crucified, Jesus said..."A new covenant, ... has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13). In other words, sin is breaking any of the Commands as listed in the New Testament (And it is not a breaking of all of the Commands in the Old). For the Old Covenant ceremonial and judical laws are no more.
To learn more about how the New Covenant replaces the Old, check out the many articles here at Grace Community International:
https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses
There are many different levels of sin (Which some Christians deny). For some believers will say all sin is the same (When the Bible does not teach that). Anyways, there are:
A. Unforgivable Sins.
There are unforgivable sins: Like suicide or self murder (and not coming back to life to repent of it) (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:17), apostasy (willingly rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior after having accepted Him and after having the Holy Spirit and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6) (Which is not about backsliding into a life of sin which is forgivable - James 5:19-20), speaking wrong words against the Holy Spirit or the works of the Spirit (Matthew 12:32) (Matthew 12:24), and or dying in serious unrepentant sin after being a believer (Such as lying, hate, adultery, etc.) (Hebrews 10:26) (Hebrews 10:38) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-4).
B. Sins that lead unto Spiritual Death.
1 John 5:16-18 mentions that are two different types of sins. (1) Sins that lead unto spiritual death and (2) sins that do not lead unto spiritual. Sins unto spiritual death are those types of sins that the apostle Paul lists several times in the New Testament whereby a person who does such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (Ephesians 5:3-7) (Romans 1:28-32) (Colossians 3:5-6). They are sins such as lying, stealing, murder, hate, adultery, idolatry, theft, and drunkenness, etc.). They are called sins unto death because Paul says in Romans 1:32 that they which do such things are worthy of "death." The apostle John also lists these types of sins and then says, that those who do them will face the "Second Death," which is the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). These sins lead unto spiritual death because men do not repent of these types of sins to the Lord (i.e. confess or forsake them). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
C. Sins that do NOT lead unto Spiritual Death:
Sins that do not lead unto spiritual death are serious sins (Like lying, hating, etc.) that are confessed and forsaken. Other types of "Sins that do not lead unto Spiritual Death" are hidden or secret faults like Psalm 19:12 mentions. One such command in disobeying it that does not lead unto death is baptism (1 Peter 3:21). I also believe the sin that does not lead unto death would be going over the speed limit a little (without realizing it), or disobeying the traffic laws to get your wife to the hospital, etc.; or not doing something "extra good" at your job for the Lord that you know you could have done, but you chose not to do it (Whereby you did only what was required instead).
D. Greater Sins.
There are varying degrees of seriousness when it comes to certain "Sins that lead unto Spiritual Death." For Jesus Himself said there is a greater sin (John 19:11); And Jesus seem to pay special focus on a particular form of punishment if one were to make a child to sin (Luke 17:2). For even in our own culture, we believe certain sins or crimes are more serious than others (Like murder is more serious than say... lying). However, the Bible still classifies them as both being the type of sins that will still send someone to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
In any event, I hope this helps.
May God bless you and please be well.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
Side Note:
If this reply does not answer the core of what you wanted answered, please rephrase what you want me to specifically answer again. Thank you.
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Jordan Kurecki
Separated unto the Gospel of God
Let me also remind you of James 2:10 "for whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one poit, he is guilty of all."
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Jesus is saying he will in no wise cast out those who come to Him. This is talking in the present tense and it is not talking about what will happen later.
No doubt you will want to point to John 6:39 so as to prove your case. However, let's look at that verse with the surrounding verses and see what it says.
John 6:37-40
37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
First, what does Jesus mean by,
“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”
Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).
Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.
Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,
"I WILL lose nothing."
However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,
"I SHOULD lose nothing."
John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me Ishould lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
You can double check it for yourself here,
John 6 KJV
Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40
"MAY have everlasting life".
John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?
Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.
And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.
Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?
Source Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Eternal_Security.2593556.pdf
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- Jul 22, 2014
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What Law is James talking about in relation to the whole Law? Context is the key. James is talking about the Royal Law or the Moral Law (Which is a part of loving others - Also see Romans 13:8-10). James says if you commit no adultery and yet kill thou art become a transgressor of the Law. The point James is trying to make is in regards to not having respect of persons. For I have already established that not all sin is the same. For example: There are unforgivable sins. If one breaks a traffic law, truly one is not also breaking an unforgivable sin, too. That wouldn't make any sense.
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Answered this point within the thread already. You can check that out here:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...itional-security.7914686/page-3#post-68787718
As for Ephesians 1:13-14:
What is a guarantee?
Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evilspirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
Acts. 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 6:11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I am not buying the ... only born again types will always endure to the end. Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 6:15? Believers or unbelievers? If Jesus was speaking to unbelievers, it would do them no good to forgive people. They would first need to repent of their sins and accept Christ first. This means Jesus believed that it was possible for a believer to not be forgiven if they did not forgive others.
....
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stuart lawrence
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B
You cannot address my points for you do not understand them. That is not meant unkindly but I must be honest. I know what you in your heart believe, for it is the same Christianity I grew up with. And I am going to repeat, even if the subject doesn't interest you. In most churches the vast majority of churchgoers cone from more loving secure backgrounds, therefore statistically they will be less likely to suffer from we might term the taboo sins that many believe must instantly cease once a person becomes a christian. Now please don't tell me Jason the church you worship at is not as I have described for I wouldn't believe you. A weak message, built only on the literal letter without understanding the heart of the message contained in that letter will bring the result i have mentioned.
I could quote huge amounts of scripture to you Jason but sadly it would be futile, because you always ignore the truth you are shown from the scriptures and simply cone back with much of the literal letter. You have to understand the heart of the message, bo one understands that if all they do us ream off the literal letter. The Pharisees of Jesus day prove this to be true
The higher points of the law according to Christ is justice, mercy, faithfulness and of course love. Those higher points are not seen in a message of. Perform perfect or you are in danger of being cast into hell
To be honest with you, by clinging to a belief, despite what you have been shown to the contrary that the christian is under a righteousness before God of observing the ten commandments shows you do not understand the true message of grace. But you do have the literal letter
Dear Jason
You cannot address my points for you do not understand them. That is not meant unkindly but I must be honest. I know what you in your heart believe, for it is the same Christianity I grew up with. And I am going to repeat, even if the subject doesn't interest you. In most churches the vast majority of churchgoers cone from more loving secure backgrounds, therefore statistically they will be less likely to suffer from we might term the taboo sins that many believe must instantly cease once a person becomes a christian. Now please don't tell me Jason the church you worship at is not as I have described for I wouldn't believe you. A weak message, built only on the literal letter without understanding the heart of the message contained in that letter will bring the result i have mentioned.
I could quote huge amounts of scripture to you Jason but sadly it would be futile, because you always ignore the truth you are shown from the scriptures and simply cone back with much of the literal letter. You have to understand the heart of the message, bo one understands that if all they do us ream off the literal letter. The Pharisees of Jesus day prove this to be true
The higher points of the law according to Christ is justice, mercy, faithfulness and of course love. Those higher points are not seen in a message of. Perform perfect or you are in danger of being cast into hell
To be honest with you, by clinging to a belief, despite what you have been shown to the contrary that the christian is under a righteousness before God of observing the ten commandments shows you do not understand the true message of grace. But you do have the literal letter
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stuart lawrence
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Jason could you answer me one question please. If you are correct concerning which law the believer is no longer under unto righteousness by Christs death at Calvary. Can you please explain to me why the Apostle Paul needed Christ as his saviour? How does Christs death at Calvary help Paul? For he could faultlessly obey as a Pharisee the law you say Christ died to annul. But he could not obey the law you say the christian has a righteousness before God of obeying. So if you are correct as to the christian having a righteousness before God of obeying the ten commandments, what benefit did the apostle Paul gain by Christs death at Calvary?
Can you address this point, or not?
Why did Paul need a saviour from sin concerning the law he could faultlessly obey?
Can you address this point, or not?
Why did Paul need a saviour from sin concerning the law he could faultlessly obey?
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Who is not listening when I told you before that I don't believe the Old Law is just the 10? I don't believe the Sabbath or ceremonial laws or judicial laws are binding anymore. Only God's eternal moral laws are in effect.
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stuart lawrence
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But ypu
But you have just proved my point Jason, you did not respond to the points raised in the post. It is difficult to answer those points when you can only see the literal letter, not the heart of the message contained in the letter.
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