True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

Jason,

Why can you not see that we are not trying to win an argument with you.

This is about God, our God. Not winning.

We give more than a verse here and a verse there to you.

Did you ever stop to think there may be something for you to learn here? When you put down your guard and really start to think things through, not justify your beliefs, I think it would make sense to you.

How many Christians do you think believe as you do? Maybe 7%

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Please respond to the following, you did ask the question:

'''If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:16 niv1984 ed
Do you accept what it says in Galatians or not? Are you accusing me of false beliefs for accepting the plain words of the bible? PLEASE RESPOND'''

"But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not!" (Galatians 2:17 NLT).

The word "Law" is in reference to the Old Law and not the New Law.

....

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Jason,

Why can you not see that we are not trying to win an argument with you.

This is about God, our God. Not winning.

We give more than a verse here and a verse there to you.

Did you ever stop to think there may be something for you to learn here? When you put down your guard and really start to think things through, not justify your beliefs, I think it would make sense to you.

How many Christians do you think believe as you do? Maybe 7%

I believe that this topic of discussion is a matter of life and death. Souls are at stake here.

As for how many believers believe as I do: Well, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

....

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

Jason0047 said:
"But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not!" (Galatians 2:17 NLT).

The word "Law" is in reference to the Old Law and not the New Law.

....

Now could you respond to verse 16 as you were asked to please. Once again you add to what is not in the bible, by saying itcrefers to ot law

Do not go beyond what is written 1cor4:6

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

I must admit to a wry smile. I Imagine you going through ad many versions of the bible ad possible frantically trying to find one that may better be juggled to suit your errant beliefs

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I believe that this topic of discussion is a matter of life and death. Souls are at stake here.

As for how many believers believe as I do: Well, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

....

I'm sorry, but I just do not believe that you do not sin. You've never looked at anyone lustfully. Wanted what they have. I don't buy it. Sorry.

I think that if you realize that a sin is anything that is not holy, you would see that you are a sinner.

You must have a very narrow idea of sin that keeps you thinking you are free from it. I've heard all kinds of things from people concerning sin. Denial is what human beings do.

I've heard this story over, and over and over.

You sinned against another earlier in this thread, remember?

Jesus set the standard for not sinning.

In essence you say you are living like Jesus did after He forgave your sin. You are living in righteousness that is on par with the Holy God.

That you love on par with Jesus loving us and the Father sending His Own Son to suffer the wrath of sin. You must have given away all you own and picked up your cross to preach the gospel. I'm sure you do not have a family, because Paul said that it is better not to marry but devote all of who you are to Christ.

And because of your perfection, you must haven given all for the cause of Christ. Everything you are, everything you hope to be. Because Jesus came as a servant. To serve and picking up your cross is serving other with agape love, expecting nothing in return. Doing nothing from your own motivations or best interest, but only in the cause for others.

That is the righteousness of Christ.

What do you do for a living if I may ask? Do you own anything? I'm sure if you even own a car, it is a beater. Because Jesus was not concerned with the things of this world and was in constant prayer with the Father. As a matter of fact, He said that this earth is not His home, so you must be in constant prayer with the spiritual not to get caught up in the chaos that is life on earth.

How do you do it? Shouldn't you testify to others so they can be like you? I'd like to know myself.

I imagine that you would have no time to drive.

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
I'm sorry, but I just do not believe that you do not sin. You've never looked at anyone lustfully. Wanted what they have. I don't buy it. Sorry.

I think that if you realize that a sin is anything that is not holy, you would see that you are a sinner.

You must have a very narrow idea of sin that keeps you thinking you are free from it. I've heard all kinds of things from people concerning sin. Denial is what human beings do.

I've heard this story over, and over and over.

You sinned against another earlier in this thread, remember?

The main problem comes when some sincere new converts believe what they are being told. They fear if they cannot immediately perform perfect God will cast them into hell
This is a truthful statement. I have found in life those who most earnestly stress the literal letter must be obeyed to attain heaven are those furthest away from obeying what Christ termed the higher points of the law
And biblically speaking the people who most earnestly stressed strict obedience if the letter were the most corrupted on the inside. But on the outside to the people they appeared holy and righteous.
Jadons gospel message is dangerous it had ruined the lives of many sincere people

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

B

Jason0047 said:
I believe that this topic of discussion is a matter of life and death. Souls are at stake here.

As for how many believers believe as I do: Well, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

....

you see Jason, all you have is some of the literal letter. When you are asked to explain in your own words what being born again means, and what it means to have the law placed within you you seem unable to do it. I imagine you will have to study up on it. A born again christian shouldn't have to do that. They should straight away be able to respond

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

So really I don't need scripture.

I need to know how you pull it off?

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
The main problem comes when some sincere new converts believe what they are being told. They fear if they cannot immediately perform perfect God will cast them into hell
This is a truthful statement. I have found in life those who most earnestly stress the literal letter must be obeyed to attain heaven are those furthest away from obeying what Christ termed the higher points of the law
And biblically speaking the people who most earnestly stressed strict obedience if the letter were the most corrupted on the inside. But on the outside to the people they appeared holy and righteous.
Jadons gospel message is dangerous it had ruined the lives of many sincere people

Worse than that is that we cast judgement upon ourselves when we judge. in Matthew 23 which was written out earlier, the Pharisee's will be judged more harshly by God because of the letter of the law that they upheld. I tried to point that out, I'm not sure if that note was taken.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Worse than that is that we cast judgement upon ourselves when we judge. in Matthew 23 which was written out earlier, the Pharisee's will be judged more harshly by God because of the letter of the law that they upheld. I tried to point that out, I'm not sure if that note was taken.

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

H

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Worse than that is that we cast judgement upon ourselves when we judge. in Matthew 23 which was written out earlier, the Pharisee's will be judged more harshly by God because of the letter of the law that they upheld. I tried to point that out, I'm not sure if that note was taken.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

The problem had always been the religious rather than the non religious attacking grace.
Christ was persecuted by religious people who wanted a righteousness of their own before God. So they accused him of ignoring the law
Steven the first christian martyr was arrested and stoned to death by religious people, one of the reasons? He was supposed to be ignoring the law.
Paul said:
Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am i still being persecuted, in that case the offence of the cross has been removed Gal5:11
Why is the true offence of the cross not preaching a law of righteousness?
NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW but that which is by faith in Christ. The righteousness which is from God and cones by faith Phil3:9
No matter how people skillfully word it, they want to cling to a righteousness of their own before God, it is not there's to have. Christ is their righteousness, and that id the true offence of the cross. If Christ is your righteousness you cannot boast or take the credit for you salvation

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
The problem had always been the religious rather than the non religious attacking grace.
Christ was persecuted by religious people who wanted a righteousness of their own before God. So they accused him of ignoring the law
Steven the first christian martyr was arrested and stoned to death by religious people, one of the reasons? He was supposed to be ignoring the law.
Paul said:
Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am i still being persecuted, in that case the offence of the cross has been removed Gal5:11
Why is the true offence of the cross not preaching a law of righteousness?
NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW but that which is by faith in Christ. The righteousness which is from God and cones by faith Phil
No matter how people skillfully word it, they want to cling to a righteousness of their own before God, it is not there's to have. Christ is their righteousness, and that id the true offence of the cross

I have to wonder what kind of teaching they are under.

Why was the woman who committed adultery not stoned? Because Jesus said "Ye who is WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone at her".

How come all those law followers could not cast that stone at her?

She walked away.

I think that that is powerful because that was God Himself. Jesus Christ, so no mixing that one up in doctrine.

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
I have to wonder what kind of teaching they are under.

Why was the woman who committed adultery not stoned? Because Jesus said "Ye who is WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone at her".

How come all those law followers could not cast that stone at her?

She walked away.

I think that that is powerful because that was God Himself. Jesus Christ, so no mixing that one up in doctrine.

Absolutely. That is my favorite story in the Gospels

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Now could you respond to verse 16 as you were asked to please. Once again you add to what is not in the bible, by saying itcrefers to ot law

Do not go beyond what is written 1cor4:6

It stands to reason that if I believe verse 17 is about the Old Law, then verse 16 is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law, too. Oh, and I am not going beyond what is written. Galatians gives us many clues it is referring to the law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. For starters, Galatians 2:3 says this:

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:"

Is circumcision a part of the New Law or the Old Law? But what about the moral law in the Old? Does that mean we are not under the moral law of the Old? No. Because the moral law has been repeated in the New and the moral law in the New does not have death penalties attached to some of them. We are under a completely different Covenant with new laws or commands. In fact, we know that the moral law is still in effect because Paul says in Galatians 5:19-24,

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Notice verse 23? It says if one has the fruits of the Spirit then there is no law against that.

For verse 18 says,

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

We see two contrasts here.

#1. Works of the flesh (by which one will not inherit the Kingdom of God).
#2. Fruits of the Spirit by which one would not be under the Law (if they have them).

There is no third category of a believer getting away with one or two sins on occasion with the thinking they are saved. One either has the fruits of the Spirit or the works of the flesh; And the list of sins to breaking certain moral laws in Galatians 5 lets us know that the moral law has not been abrogated in regards to salvation. For be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

...

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
I have to wonder what kind of teaching they are under.

Why was the woman who committed adultery not stoned? Because Jesus said "Ye who is WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone at her".

How come all those law followers could not cast that stone at her?

She walked away.

I think that that is powerful because that was God Himself. Jesus Christ, so no mixing that one up in doctrine.

But is Jesus really concerned with no judgment whatsoever for those who sin? Let's check out a similar scenario of a person who sinned that Jesus talks with.

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14).

Did you catch that? It does not get any clearer. Jesus here says to the man he heals to sin no more unless a worse thing come upon him. Sure sounds like God is concerned with justice done if one sins. God is not unrighteous. He is perfectly capable of punishing sin in some way if one does not confess and forsake their sins (In His timing).

....

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

How do you manage to be without sin?

Do you not think that that is a huge part of your testimony?

But each time I ask you do not answer, so how can I believe your testimony if you cannot explain how one goes about not going to hell.

What gospel do you believe yourself to be preaching?

The gospel is the Good News, but you cannot tell me how your gospel can save me from hell and I can follow exactly what you do.

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

Jason0047 said:
But is Jesus really concerned with no judgment whatsoever for those who sin? Let's check out a similar scenario of a person who sinned that Jesus talks with.

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14).

Did you catch that? It does not get any clearer. Jesus here says to the man he heals to sin no more unless a worse thing come upon him. Sure sounds like God is concerned with justice done if one sins. God is not unrighteous. He still must punish sin in some way if one does not confess and forsake their sins.

....

Why did He let the woman who committed adultery go?

You've bypassed that whole question and jumped to another verse. Doesn't that seem weird to you? That Jesus Christ let her go because no one was without sin to stone her.

Why did not Jesus Himself pick up a stone and lob it at her? He was without sin.

How do you get passed that. It's clear as day.

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

Jason0047 said:
It stands to reason that if I believe verse 17 is about the Old Law, then verse 16 is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law, too. Oh, and I am not going beyond what is written. Galatians gives us many clues it is referring to the law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. For starters, Galatians 2:3 says this:

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:"

Is circumcision a part of the New Law or the Old Law? But what about the moral law in the Old? Does that mean we are not under the moral law of the Old? No. Because the moral law has been repeated in the New and the moral law in the New does not have death penalties attached to some of them. We are under a completely different Covenant with new laws or commands. In fact, we know that the moral law is still in effect because Paul says in Galatians 5:19-24,

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Notice verse 23? It says if one has the fruits of the Spirit then there is no law against that.

For verse 18 says,

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

We see two contrasts here.

#1. Works of the flesh (by which one will not inherit the Kingdom of God).
#2. Fruits of the Spirit by which one would not be under the Law (if they have them).

There is no third category of a believer getting away with one or two sins on occasion with the thinking they are saved. One either has the fruits of the Spirit or the works of the flesh; And the list of sins to breaking certain moral laws in Galatians 5 lets us know that the moral law has not been abrogated in regards to salvation. For be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

...

What you have written is frankly ridiculous. If gal2:16 does not refer to the moral law how could Paul be found to be a sinner concerning law he faultlessly obeyed?
I am afraid your errant beliefs simply fall apart when put under the microscope, as they did with gal3:10&11

You most certainly do add to what is written, you have no choice for you contradict what is written

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
How do you manage to be without sin?

Do you not think that that is a huge part of your testimony?

But each time I ask you do not answer, so how can I believe your testimony if you cannot explain how one goes about not going to hell.

What gospel do you believe yourself to be preaching?

The gospel is the Good News, but you cannot tell me how your gospel can save me from hell and I can follow exactly what you do.

I never said I was without sin. I said I do not sin those types of sins that lead unto death on a daily basis. Yes, I sometimes faulter, but I confess my sins so as to be forgiven of sin, and I do not live in grevious sins that would cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God like lying, hate, adultery, theft, etc. For there are sins unto death and there are sins that are not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). For breaking the command to be baptized is not a sin that leads unto death (See 1 Peter 3:21). But if one decides to break the command of forgiving others, then one will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:14-15). It is a command one cannot break without there being any spiritual death consequences. For obviously one cannot be saved and also not be forgiven by the Father.

Also, I am not claiming it is YOU who does the work or who ultimately obeys, either. I believe that once a person becomes born again, then they have the free will choice to surrender to God whereby He can then do the "good work" within them.

But how can I defend Sinless Perfectionism or in the belief that a believer can stop sinning? Because that is the goal for every believer. I am telling folks to believe the Scriiptures and to strive in overcome sin as the goal. To not give in. Sort of like if I was in a prison wrongfully along with others (who were also wrongfully imprisoned) to encourage us in escaping so as to be free. Freedom is the goal. Giving in and saying we will never be free is just admitting to your own bondage and remaining in hopelessness. But who overcomes sin? Me? You? No. God does that thru the believer. So only Jesus can get the glory for any good done in a believer's life.

....

True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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