True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

RLBeers said:
It seems to me I am reading a circular argument, and both of you appear to be missing or avoiding the elephant in the room, when Peter denied Christ, the sacrifice for sin had not be accomplished. No blood had been shed to wipe away sin, and Jesus had not died and been ressurected.

Why is that an elephant in the room?

After Jesus death, Peter, along with the other disciples received the Holy Spirit (sent by Christ) at Pentecost.

So, at Pentecost is when Peter was born-again.

All of Peter's past sins had and are forgiven at that point. Including when Peter denied Christ.

So there is no elephant. We have the full story of what happened.

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

kingskid said:
There are two sets of believers.
Believers still in the flesh( in the process of being drawn)
Believers born again

A rebirth happens after a true repentance. That is when God writes His laws on their hearts. That is when they are born again. There is no back and forth rebirth.

If you do not mind. A tiny, tiny small change in an otherwise perfect statement.

replace 'faith' for 'true repentance'.

Otherwise perfect.

kingskid · Nov 6, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Sorry. I just ate your elephant. Scripture says Jesus is the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world. In addition, please carefully re-read Romans 3:25 in a couple of different translations.

....

While Jesus had not yet been crucified He did also stress to Nicademus

kingskid · Nov 6, 2015

John 3:3, 9, 9-10 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? [9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? [10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

kingskid · Nov 6, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
If you do not mind. A tiny, tiny small change in an otherwise perfect statement.

replace 'faith' for 'true repentance'.

Otherwise perfect.

Yes faith does bring about repentance.

sdowney717 · Nov 6, 2015

How far gone was Peter when Satan spoke through Peter to Jesus before Jesus was crucified?
Jesus turned and said back to Peter

Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

This tells us Peter was not filled with the Holy Spirit, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and had not been born again regenerated yet.

stuart lawrence · Nov 6, 2015

mercy1061 said:
What about Judas?

Very good point

stuart lawrence · Nov 6, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
If you do not mind. A tiny, tiny small change in an otherwise perfect statement.

replace 'faith' for 'true repentance'.

Otherwise perfect.

This thread is all the better for the knowledge you bring to it

stuart lawrence · Nov 6, 2015

Peter was always ultimately safe with Jesus, for Jesus chose him and only one Jesus chose would perish, none of the others. Peter was frightened the night Jesus was arrested and gave into that fear, but Jesus was never going to disown him. He decided Peter would be the rock on which he built his church

stuart lawrence · Nov 6, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
What you say is not possible at that time. No one was born again until after Jesus death and resurrection.

After Jesus death and at Pentecost the disciples received the Holy Spirit.

That is why Jesus told them that is in their best interest that Jesus go. Because then He will ask the Father to send the Comforter to them.

I agree, being born again is when the spirit dwells IN you, that happened at pentecost

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
This thread is all the better for the knowledge you bring to it

Thank you so much. That brought me a smile this morning.

I am still learning so much, but I like to share what I have learned thus far with others.

Iron sharpens iron.

kingskid · Nov 6, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I agree, being born again is when the spirit dwells IN you, that happened at pentecost

I'm not so sure some OT saints were not born again since Jesus stressed to Nicodemus that he, being a master of Israel, should have known about it.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

sdowney717 · Nov 6, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Peter was always ultimately safe with Jesus, for Jesus chose him and only one Jesus chose would perish, none of the others. Peter was frightened the night Jesus was arrested and gave into that fear, but Jesus was never going to disown him. He decided Peter would be the rock on which he built his church

Peter was a rock and Christ was the Rock, Christ lost not a single one of all those the Father had given Him, except for Judas that the scripture would be fulfilled. Before we were born, God had determined these things beforehand, He declares all things that exist before they exist.
John 17 is a strong comfort to our eternal salvation.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

We are also partakers of these promises, those who believe are described as being given to Christ by God.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

kingskid said:
I'm not so sure some OT saints were not born again since Jesus stressed to Nicodemus that he, being a master of Israel, should have known about it.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

Nicodemus would have known that the Messiah would forgive sins and that a Messiah would be coming.

It does not IMHO mean that it OT saints were born again in any way, unless you have additional verses that show that.

sdowney717 · Nov 6, 2015

kingskid said:
I'm not so sure some OT saints were not born again since Jesus stressed to Nicodemus that he, being a master of Israel, should have known about it.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

All the righteous dead went to Hell before Christ, but hell was divided into 2 parts, as Christ taught. Fiery torments and Abraham's' bosom which was the paradise of God. Of which Jesus tells the thief on the cross, that he will be with Jesus in Paradise.
So when Christ dies, he goes there and leads out the people in paradise into heaven.

Ephesians 4:9
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Hell is not in the heavens, it is somehow down there in the fire in the earth.

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

I am going to share what I believe as far as those chosen beforehand, before the foundation of the earth.

God is not limited to time. That is an earthly thing. Time.

So to God there is no time because he is not held to an earthly existance as human beings are.

That is what I think happens with the verses that say 'before the earth' or 'before time'. That is spoken not according to earthly things, like time, but heavenly things of God that are not limited to time.

That is why I do not believe Calvanism doctrine.

Although God knows all, from the beginning to the end. I do not think that He interferes at all in our free will. He created free will from the beginning by putting the Tree of Knowledge in the garden.

We are living our lives within the spectrum of time. But God is outside of time, so of course God knows what we will do, but He doesn't interfere with that.

kingskid · Nov 6, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Nicodemus would have known that the Messiah would forgive sins and that a Messiah would be coming.

It does not IMHO mean that it OT saints were born again in any way, unless you have additional verses that show that.

I don't have, I just said I wasn't sure since Jesus was telling Nicodenus he should know.

What I am sure of is there is no yoyo rebirth. Back and forth.

stuart lawrence · Nov 6, 2015

kingskid said:
I'm not so sure some OT saints were not born again since Jesus stressed to Nicodemus that he, being a master of Israel, should have known about it.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

In the mind of God Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, he wasn't actually slain till Calvary. Jesus told nicodemus being born again of the spirit was like the wind blowing wherever it pleases, you hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it will go next. So it is with everyone born of the spirit. This could not refer to people under the old covenant. They were all born into it by right of birth into a Jewish family.
Jesus told nicodemus he should have known these things because the new covenant was prophesied in the old testament:

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts( being born again) Jeremiah 31
In Ezekiel 36:26 the new covenant is also prophesied of:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you...
Being spiritually born again

ToBeLoved · Nov 6, 2015

kingskid said:
I don't have, I just said I wasn't sure since Jesus was telling Nicodenus he should know.

What I am sure of is there is no yoyo rebirth. Back and forth.

I agree.

The Holy Spirit in us is the down-payment and guarantee of our future inheritance in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are one of Christ's Own.

Romans 8:15-17
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

John 6:27
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 6, 2015

sdowney717 said:
I would go with The Spirit had not yet been given, since Christ had not yet been glorified.
The Holy Spirit indwells believers. He will not indwell an old wine bottle or it would burst.
So you can easily see, I hope, the new birth, regeneration comes BEFORE the indwelling Holy Spirit, else the person would be destroyed.
How long between these 2 events, the new birth and the subsequent indwelling Holy Spirit, is an open question.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given,because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And when the bridegroom Christ is gone away, Jesus said The Father will send to them the Holy Spirit to indwell them.

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.
16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse.

17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.

But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

There is that word PRESERVED again! God preserves His saints. Jesus is talking about us being regenerated prior to receiving of the Holy Spirit.

But according to John 14:17, they knew the Spirit and the Spirit lived with them (even though the Spirit was not inside them yet). Besides, does not John 1:12-13 say one is born again by receiving Christ or by believing on His name?

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