stuart lawrence
Well-Known Member
But your salvation doesn't depend on Jesus, it depends on a righteousness of observing the law
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But your salvation doesn't depend on Jesus, it depends on a righteousness of observing the lawThere are two wrong extremes that people make with Soteriology. Antinomianism or Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. If a person is saved it is because Christ lives within them whereby the works of Christ will be evident in their lives. If sin is what is only evident, then they serving another master that is not God or Christ. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
See, when a person repents of their sins and accepts Christ and believes in His death and resurrection, they are taking a step forward in righteousness. Not their own righteousness, but within the righteousness of God. This righteousness of the Lord continues in a believer's life. The more a person conforms to the image of the Son, the more the Substitionary Atonement is a reality for the believer. Again, the Bible describes faith as both a belief and as an action (See Hebrews 11).
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Therefore it does not depend on mans desire or effort but on Gods mercy rom9:16In fact, even a believer's very foundation of their faith is based on a work or action on their behalf. We are called by way of prayer unto God and asked Him to forgive us of our sins, and we asked Him into our heart (Believing that He died and was risen so as to save us). Granted, this prayer (or call unto Christ) is not a man directed work, but it is a God directed work.
Why do folks think our continued faith in Him would be any different?
James says faith without works (i.e. God directed works) is dead.
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For if those who live by law are heirs faith has no value and the promise is worthless for law brings wrath rom 4:14&15In fact, even a believer's very foundation of their faith is based on a work or action on their behalf. We are called by way of prayer unto God and asked Him to forgive us of our sins, and we asked Him into our heart (Believing that He died and was risen so as to save us). Granted, this prayer (or call unto Christ) is not a man directed work, but it is a God directed work.
Why do folks think our continued faith in Him would be any different?
James says faith without works (i.e. God directed works) is dead.
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Grace is the only true power to overcome sin. You rely on observing the law. Paul states for those who do that faith has no value, and grace comes through faithThe Bible is not written in such a way that we prefer (So as to understand it in how we would like it to be). Paul makes it very clear many times that a believer cannot commit certain sins like murder, hate, lying, etc. (Which is a moral issue) and inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and he knows nothing. The doctrine of Godliness is the same thing as the teaching of common basic morality. The Gentiles did that which was in the Law of Moses by their very nature. But they still needed a Savior because everyone has sinned. People need their past records erased whereby they can then walk brand new in Christ with a new heart.
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you don't understand grace. Your mindset is. As long as I perfectly obey the law I am under graceYes, that is what Paul preached against in Romans and Galatians. Nowhere am I prescribing that a person is justified by obedience to the Law of Moses alone (Which is a man directed effort). What am I saying is that when a believer repents of their sins, accepts Christ into their hearts, and believes Jesus died and risen for their salvation it will then lead to have a new spirit and new heart whereby Christ lives within them (Doing God directed works in their life). If a believer sins again, they have God's grace so as to fall back upon (Not as a license to continue in sin) but so as to overcome it (With the Lord's help).
No. Paul says we establish the Law by our faith in Christ (i.e. Which would be a faith as described in Hebrews 11 which is both a belief and an action). Also, the pharisees did not keep the whole Law. They ignored the weightier matters of it.
For Jesus said,
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Matthew 23:23).
And, you have to keep reading to get the context,
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:18-21).
In other words, the Jews wanted to be justified by obeying the Law of Moses alone and they did not want to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ and believe in Him for their salvation by faith and His teachings (Which involves many various Commands (based on love) given in the New Testament).
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Jesus commandments are. Love God and love your neighbour, all the law hangs on these two. Love fulfills the law.But Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). What are his commandments? Everything He commanded us directly Himself or by His apostles in the New Testament. For Paul even essentially said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22).
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The love of God will only be reflected in your life if you live under grace.God is love (1 John 4:8). And if God lives in a person, then the love of God or the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in their life. For anyone that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).
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Paul says we establish/uphold the law if we live by a righteousness of faith in Christ, not one of observing the law, you reject thatYes, that is what Paul preached against in Romans and Galatians. Nowhere am I prescribing that a person is justified by obedience to the Law of Moses alone (Which is a man directed effort). What am I saying is that when a believer repents of their sins, accepts Christ into their hearts, and believes Jesus died and risen for their salvation it will then lead to have a new spirit and new heart whereby Christ lives within them (Doing God directed works in their life). If a believer sins again, they have God's grace so as to fall back upon (Not as a license to continue in sin) but so as to overcome it (With the Lord's help).
No. Paul says we establish the Law by our faith in Christ (i.e. Which would be a faith as described in Hebrews 11 which is both a belief and an action). Also, the pharisees did not keep the whole Law. They ignored the weightier matters of it.
For Jesus said,
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Matthew 23:23).
And, you have to keep reading to get the context,
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:18-21).
In other words, the Jews wanted to be justified by obeying the Law of Moses alone and they did not want to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ and believe in Him for their salvation by faith and His teachings (Which involves many various Commands (based on love) given in the New Testament).
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But your salvation doesn't depend on Jesus, it depends on a righteousness of observing the law
Paul says we establish/uphold the law if we live by a righteousness of faith in Christ, not one of observing the law, you reject that
You have stated Paul talks of the law as in the law of Moses. Please give me just one statement of Paul's to back that up where he states the christian dies to a law of righteousness solely concerning the mosaic law not including the ten commandments. We both know you cannot produce such a verse so you are wrong to state what you do. The christian has to have a bottom line. Mine is because Jesus died for my sins, he is my right standing before God. Your right standing before God is observing the law for you repeatedly state that is your righteousness. Therefore I have a saviour from sib whereas you must save yourself from sin or you are condemnedPlease do not tell me what I believe. I know what I believe. I believe Jesus Christ died in my place for my sins. I first believed this when I repented of my sins, and accepted Him as my Savior. I still believe that today. But I realize that I am saved by grace thru faith. Faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11. Plus, I believe Jesus saves not just in Justification or in accepting and believing in Jesus but salvation is in allowing Christ to work in my life (i.e. Sanctification). So do I believe myself alone observes the law? No. Paul talks of the Law as in reference to the Law of Moses and not all law. Also, I believe Christ is the One who works in me to obey. It is not by my own power. So you would be wrong about what I actually believe. Salvation is 100% Christ. A person merely chooses to yield or surrender to Christ by believing in Him and by allowing His good work to flow thru their life.
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The love of God will only be reflected in your life if you live under grace.
If a person entered your church well dressed and educated. They attended all of the meetings, tithed their money, did good deeds all could see. If they knew the literal words of scripture off by heart and stressed how well people must obey Gods laws and not sin. And if they did not get drunk, smoke, use foul language or have extra marital affairs, would you accept them as a christian on that basis? I am sure you would
And yet, the Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed all those tests with flying colours, I am sure they would not have smoked if smoking had then been invented. Yet Jesus said they did not even know his father
You still cannot see it can you, only by living apart from a law of righteousness can you uphold the law (rom3:31)Well, I do not observe the Law of Moses alone like the Jews did, so this is not a problem for me. But that does not erase the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or Royal Law (James 2:8) or the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). That does not erase the commands Jesus gave us directly from Himself and or by His apostles. For can you not forgive and be forgiven? According to Matthew 6:15, you cannot have unforgiveness towards others and be forgiven. Can you hate your brother and have eternal life abiding in you? According to 1 John 3:15, you cannot hate others and have eternal life abiding in you.
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You still cannot see it can you, only by living apart from a law of righteousness can you uphold the law (rom3:31)
The Pharisees ignored the higher points of the law, mercy, faithfulness and justice. I don't see much mercy in your posts. It is virtually, perform almost perfect or be cast into hellUh, not according to Jesus. Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like mercy, and faith, etc. Scripture says, the Law is a school master to bring a person to Jesus Christ. One does not throw all of what they learned from their school master when coming to Christ. For surely not stealing, and not hating are fruits of Christ living in a person, no? For Christ is holy and cannot sin and He will not tolerate willful rebellion or sin done against Him if He lives in a person. A believer has to feel sorry about their sin and express that sorrow in a Godly way to the LORD and forsake that sin (with God's help). A believer cannot cheat on their wife and expect to be saved. For what fellowship does light have with darkness. Be not deceived, the unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. How does one become righteous? By accepting Christ and allowing his good work to flow thru your life and believing in Him and what He has done.
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You have stated Paul talks of the law as in the law of Moses. Please give me just one statement of Paul's to back that up where he states the christian dies to a law of righteousness solely concerning the mosaic law not including the ten commandments. We both know you cannot produce such a verse so you are wrong to state what you do. The christian has to have a bottom line. Mine is because Jesus died for my sins, he is my right standing before God. Your right standing before God is observing the law for you repeatedly state that is your righteousness. Therefore I have a saviour from sib whereas you must save yourself from sin or you are condemned
For the previous ten verses Paul had been stressing the christian has a righteousness apart from yet he law. Some of his readers he knew would think like you do, that means a licence to sin. To correct those under such an impression he writes:Read Romans 3:1.
That's the context of the word "law."
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That is outrageous, you added to what Paul stated in rom 4:1-5 and inserted the law of Moses. Paul never stated in those verses he was speaking minus the ten commandments.Well, OSAS Proponents believe Romans 4 is talking about all works in general or all types or forms of works. However, it is actually in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (Which is evident by the mention of circumcision in the previous chapter). Anyways, lets read the first 5 verses in Romans 4 in context to the Law of Moses:
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works [of the Law of Moses], he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh [by the Law of Moses] is the reward not reckoned of grace [as a gift], but of debt [in being in debted to the Law of Moses]. But to him that worketh not [by the Law of Moses], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " (Romans 4:1-5).
Also, we know that Abraham was justified by the fact that he also performed , too.
For Romans 4:21-22 says,
"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
Certain OSAS Proponents also believe James 2 is in reference to external works that justify one before man and not God. But in reality James 2 is talking about God directed works that are a requirement for one's faith to be true. For faith without works is dead. Other OSAS Proponents completey disregard what James says because they believe that his writings were written to Hebrews and not Gentile Christians. But Scripture says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.
OSAS Proponents also believe Galatians 3 is in reference to all law, as well. But Galatians 3 uses the words, "works of the Law" to let us know it is referring to the Law of Moses. For Galatians 3:24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So again, this is not in reference to all law but to the Law of Moses.
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The Pharisees ignored the higher points of the law, mercy, faithfulness and justice. I don't see much mercy in your posts. It is virtually, perform almost perfect or be cast into hell
Please tell me. When you have children, if you told them if they didn't nigh on perfectly obey your rules you would throw them out, would they think of you as a loving parent? Does God love his children any less than you could love yours? You make the mistake on hinging everything on your own personal goodness, not Christ. Love mercy and compassion underpins the Gospel message
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