True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about being justified by works of the Law of Moses alone or man directed works. The word "circumcised" and it's variations appears many times as being a problem in the book of Galatians and the book of Romans.

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Jason
I am not really interested In your man made conclusions, only spiritual truth

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

There's an sda man on christian chat. He thinks he is sinless too!

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

C

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about being justified by works of the Law of Moses alone or man directed works. The word "circumcised" and it's variations appears many times as being a problem in the book of Galatians and the book of Romans.

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So if you are right Jason, please explain how sinful passions are aroused in us by the act of circumcision(rom7:5)

ToBeLoved · Nov 4, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I did not set the bar for there to be no sin. Jesus did. He said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more."

If a girl says, no. It means no and not yes. The same applies to Jesus. If he says no to us sinning, then that is exactly what it means.

Also, not all sin leads unto spiritual death whereby it needs to be confessed so as to be forgiven, either. For there are sins that lead unto spiritual death and sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (See 1 John 5:16-18). For example: The Command of Baptism is not a salvation issue (if one does not obey it). Granted, it is highly recommened that one should be baptized but Peter makes the point that baptism is not done for salvation (1 Peter 3:21). Oh, and yes. I have been baptized. Anyways, there are commands by God that if disobeyed will lead to unpleasant circumstances in the afterlife. For example: In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says if you do not forgive, then you will not be forgiven by the Father. I see nowhere in Scripture elshwere that this Command has been abrogated or destroyed later on. On the contrary, Paul essentially says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Hi am really not listening to you talk about not all sin leads the spiritual death in which sin is what. I think you made your case already and of course I disagree

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about being justified by works of the Law of Moses alone or man directed works. The word "circumcised" and it's variations appears many times as being a problem in the book of Galatians and the book of Romans.

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But Paul could be justified by obeying Moses law as you put it for he faultlessly obeyed it phil3:6

Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
UT
THat doesn't answer the question

James makes a comparison with demons to make a point that you cannot just have a mere belief alone. If you disagree, then you are merely disagreeing with what James said. For it is obvious in reading verses 17-19, that James does not believe that a "belief" alone is all that is required in one's faith or in being justified (Because the demons also believe and tremble). James believes in a genuine faith that shows forth fruit of the Lord living within a believer.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
But Paul could be justified by obeying Moses law as you put it for he faultlessly obeyed it phil3:6

We've already covered Philippians 3:6 and Paul is not saying that he perfectly kept the entire Law of Moses (Which would be the 613 Commands in the Old Testament). Paul is saying he perfectly kept the law of the Pharisees or their traditions. For Paul said elswhere,

"Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:13).

So your interpretation on this verse is not correct.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Hi am really not listening to you talk about not all sin leads the spiritual death in which sin is what. I think you made your case already and of course I disagree

I am merely pointing to you what the Word of God says. If you do not want to hear it, that is your choice. The Bible says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). It would be illogical to assume that John is referring to these sins as leading to physical death. For Adam and Eve or their offspring were not created as immortals. Adam had to eat of the tree of life in order to become immortal physically. Besides, there is no example in the Bible of people being specifically killed physically for a particular sin on a repeat basis. Also, if you were to read thru the epistle of John and take note of the contrasts that he makes, they are always spiritual ones and not physical ones. Nowhere does John ever allude to any kind of physical death type sins within his epistle. So 1 John 5:16-18 is obviously talking about sins that are exclusively spiritual; Also, John writes to believers and not unbelievers, too. So his audience of speaking about sins that lead unto spiritual is said to "us" the believer. Which means: spiritual death is a reality for the believer.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
So if you are right Jason, please explain how sinful passions are aroused in us by the act of circumcision (rom7:5)

Again, one of the major topics of concern for Paul in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians is that certain Christians believed they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. But if someone seeks to be justified by circumcision, they are serving in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Law of Moses).

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:5-6).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

If one is trying to obey God's law by their own power of the flesh, then all they will have is awareness of sin and no actual forgivness of their sin. So their sinful passions will take control of them (Seeing they are not even really saved (forgiven of sin) nor any power of God to stop). The solution is Jesus Christ. For Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). What works? Well, the other part of 1 John 3:8 says, he that commits sin is of the devil. So Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of sin in a believer's life.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

I will repeat this verse again, seeing folks here appeared to have missed it.
Here it is in a couple of different translations:

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13 GW).

"for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you arehabitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever." (Romans 8:13 AMP)

"If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." (Romans 8:13 ERV).

"[For] If you ·use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want [live according to the flesh], you will ·die spiritually [die]. But if you ·use the Spirit’s help to [by the Spirit] ·stop doing the wrong things you do with [put to death the deeds of] your body, you will ·have true life [live]." (Romans 8:13 EXB).

"For if you live according to your human nature, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death your sinful actions, you will live." (Romans 8:13 GNT).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
There's an sda man on christian chat. He thinks he is sinless too!

Obviously he is not declaring that he had never sinned in his old life. So he is not saying that he is sinless his whole life.

As for me: Well, I am not committing sin now and there are many days I do not sin. Can you not say the same? Is it really that hard to not sin by the power of God? Can you go 5 minutes without sinning? If so, then why not 105 minutes or more?

Anyways, the Bible says, they that have suffered in the flesh, have ceased from sin. How can one suffer in the flesh? Well, being persecuted is one way. Another way would be to fast and pray to God so as to cease from sin. I am saying I am not perfect yet, but I believe in Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can permanently stop or cease from sin because the Bible teaches that particular truth (See: 1 Peter 4:1) (Galatians 5:24) (John 8:11) (Romans 6:14) (Psalm 119:11) (Matthew 5:48) (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Jason
I am not really interested In your man made conclusions, only spiritual truth

So what do you make of Galatians 5:2, then? Is not Paul addressing the problem of circumcision in the book of Galatians?

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stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

Jason0047 said:
We've already covered Philippians 3:6 and Paul is not saying that he perfectly kept the entire Law of Moses (Which would be the 613 Commands in the Old Testament). Paul is saying he perfectly kept the law of the Pharisees or their traditions. For Paul said elswhere,

"Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:13).

So your interpretation on this verse is not correct.

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I am afraid my interpretation is correct. Which law does being a blasphemer and violent man break? The moral law. No Paul could not faultlessly obey all the law for he broke the moral law as you have noted and rom 7:8 states.
The rest he faultlessly obeyed.

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

Jason0047 said:
So what do you make of Galatians 5:2, then? Is not Paul addressing the problem of circumcision in the book of Galatians?

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Exactly what it states

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

You do know Paul wrote the book of romans to gentiles, years after the council of Jerusalem gad only asked the gentile converts to follow only four hewish laws. I am sure they were not fearful they would have to be circumcised in the flesh.

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

The problem with speaking against the core of Paul's gospel message is you have to make ever more exagerated statements to cover up your contradictions of that message

stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

Its a good job that young lad on christian chat doesn't know you views, I am sure he would have walked away from the faith crushed, believing he couldn't be good enough for God

Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I am afraid my interpretation is correct.

It appears you partly agree with me. You are saying Paul obeyed the law flawlessly was not in regards to the moral law, but it was in regards to Pharisee's ritual laws, or traditions, etc.

Which law does being a blasphemer and violent man break? The moral law. No Paul could not faultlessly obey all the law for he broke the moral law as you have noted and rom 7:8 states.
The rest he faultlessly obeyed.

But we disagree on Romans 7. You believe the moral laws are abrogated in regards to a person's salvation and that by just believing in Jesus alone will provide the believer with some kind of obedience either appearance wise or that it will give them enough obedience to pass themselves off as being born again to others; However, they will also be found present as a sinner (Which to me is a contradiction in terms). You are either defined as being a born again person by your obedience to God (i.e. by not living in a bunch of horrible sins), or you are found present as a sinner. You can't have it both ways. You cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. Either one is serving God or they are serving sin. Serving God while still holding onto sin by declaring that one will sin again in the future is not serving God.

For who was the Law made for?

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).

How can a person use the Law in a lawful way?

Well, the law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

But that does not mean God's moral laws have been aprogated. God's eternal moral laws have been carried over into the New. For Paul himself says if we love our neighbor it fulfills the Law, i.e. the moral laws such as not coveting, not stealing, etc. (See Romans 13:8-10).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Its a good job that young lad on christian chat doesn't know you views, I am sure he would have walked away from the faith crushed, believing he couldn't be good enough for God

And I can say the same about your beliefs in regards to him, too. But the reality is what does Scripture say? Have you explained certain verses I brought forth? No. Have you been to make a real world example (i.e. parable) out of your belief? No.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 4, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
The problem with speaking against the core of Paul's gospel message is you have to make ever more exagerated statements to cover up your contradictions of that message

I provide plenty of Scriptures verses many times to back up what I have said. So this is simply not true.

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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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