True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

Who was ultimately responsible for Jesus death at Calvary? Religious people who wanted a righteousness of their own before God

Why was steven the first Christian martyr arrested and killed, by religious people? One of the reasons was, he was supposedly ignoring the law

Paul said:
Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted, in that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal 5:11

Who persecuted Paul? Religious people who wanted a righteousness before God under the law.

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Well, if want personal testimonies of bad things (i.e. bad fruit) as the result of people believing in OSAS (Which confirms the truth of the Word), then here you go:

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club. At the time of the writing of this article (August 6th), four people had died to include George by his own self-inflicted gunshot wound.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

You can read more about this here:
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm

Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

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People in NT times used grace as a licence to sin, but it did not stop them preaching the message.Jude 4

This is why I refuse to debate with you, you stubbornly refuse to accept what you are told.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
You know, the problem with the Pharisees was, they continuously quoted the literal letter without understanding the heart of what that letter contained. All they knew was ''Thou shalt not'' And they crushed the people with their demands, demands Jesus tells us they could not live up to in their own life. They had ripped the heart of the Gospel out of their lives. They did not depend on the love, mercy and compassion of God. As Jesus said. They neglected the love of God. And because of only knowing the literal letter, they continuously accused Jesus of being a law breaker.Let us hope people do not make the same mistake today

But Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). What are his commandments? Everything He commanded us directly Himself or by His apostles in the New Testament. For Paul even essentially said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22).

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ToBeLoved · Oct 28, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Not true at all. For how do you apply the blood? Well, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. In fact, trying comparing 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4. They are a parallel of each other.

Yes, Jesus can forgive our sins. This is in reference to our past sins. For if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Yes, the body of sin might be destroyed for the believer. This is not talking about those who have crucified the affections and lusts thru those who have learned how to be faithful to God over time. Like I said, it is not an overnight process for all believers to stop sinning. Believers need to be sanctified and purified by the Word and the Spirit in this life. For Jesus tells us to be perfect. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to stop sinning. 1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. You cannot say to someone that they need to put to death the body of sin if they have already crucified the affections and lusts. That would be a contradictory statement that would not make any sense.

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You need to study Romans 5-8

I'm not writing that all out for you.

ToBeLoved · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
People in NT times used grace as a licence to sin, but it did not stop them preaching the message.Jude 4

This is why I refuse to debate with you, you stubbornly refuse to accept what you are told.

Let us all believe what we are told by you?

That is not what the Word says. We are to be like Bereans testing everything against God's Word.

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

When you are brought up under heavy legalism you only have two ways to go. Either you become crushed and give up in the faith, or you become hard nosed and Phariseecal. My sister went the latter way, there is little love in that. She looked down on those with less academic qualities than herself, she looked down on anyone who smoked, drank alcohol and much else, and she was in earnest the Ten Commandments must be obeyed to attain Heaven. She was as we all knew a very unhappy person. It was hard to see her as my sister most of the time, we were so different and she looked down on me as well.
When she was in her early fifties, my late wife and I went to visit her with my mother. My mother told us she had changed. I was extremely sceptical, I knew my sister only too well. But I could not believe the woman who stood before me when I entered her house. Her face shone with love and peace, gone was her critical attitude of others, she had real love emanating from her. She laughed in a relaxed manner, she could not before.
She told me she knew now Christianity was not about striving to be good enough. What a change, it was so sad she had to live so much of her life miserable before grace discovered her

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Let us all believe what we are told by you?

That is not what the Word says. We are to be like Bereans testing everything against God's Word.

I have only quoted the word, please tell me what I have quoted that is not the word.

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

Jason0047 said:
But Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). What are his commandments? Everything He commanded us directly Himself or by His apostles in the New Testament. For Paul even essentially said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22).

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Carry each others burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal 6:2
In other words, love your neighbour as yourself

Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Who was ultimately responsible for Jesus death at Calvary? Religious people who wanted a righteousness of their own before God

Yes, that is what Paul preached against in Romans and Galatians. Nowhere am I prescribing that a person is justified by obedience to the Law of Moses alone (Which is a man directed effort). What am I saying is that when a believer repents of their sins, accepts Christ into their hearts, and believes Jesus died and risen for their salvation it will then lead to have a new spirit and new heart whereby Christ lives within them (Doing God directed works in their life). If a believer sins again, they have God's grace so as to fall back upon (Not as a license to continue in sin) but so as to overcome it (With the Lord's help).

Why was steven the first Christian martyr arrested and killed, by religious people? One of the reasons was, he was supposedly ignoring the law

No. Paul says we establish the Law by our faith in Christ (i.e. Which would be a faith as described in Hebrews 11 which is both a belief and an action). Also, the pharisees did not keep the whole Law. They ignored the weightier matters of it.

For Jesus said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Matthew 23:23).

Paul said:
Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted, in that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal 5:11

Who persecuted Paul? Religious people who wanted a righteousness before God under the law.

And, you have to keep reading to get the context,

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:18-21).

In other words, the Jews wanted to be justified by obeying the Law of Moses alone and they did not want to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ and believe in Him for their salvation by faith and His teachings (Which involves many various Commands (based on love) given in the New Testament).

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stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, that is what Paul preached against in Romans and Galatians. Nowhere am I prescribing that a person is justified by obedience to the Law of Moses alone (Which is a man directed effort). What am I saying is that when a believer repents of their sins, accepts Christ into their hearts, and believes Jesus died and risen for their salvation it will then lead to have a new spirit and new heart whereby Christ lives within them (Doing God directed works in their life). If a believer sins again, they have God's grace so as to fall back upon (Not as a license to continue in sin) but so as to overcome it (With the Lord's help).

No. Paul says we establish the Law by our faith in Christ (i.e. Which would be a faith as described in Hebrews 11 which is both a belief and an action). Also, the pharisees did not keep the whole Law. They ignored the weightier matters of it.

For Jesus said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightiermatters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Matthew 23:23).

And, you have to keep reading to get the context,

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:18-20).

In other words, the Jews wanted to be justified by obeying the Law of Moses alone and they did not want to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ and believe in Him for their salvation by faith and His teachings (Which involves many various Commands (based on love) given in the New Testament).

...

What you continually state Jason is a person has a righteousness before God of observing the Ten Commandments/moral law. Paul never differentiates the moral law from the mosaic law when he speaks of not being under a law of righteousness before God
I repeat yet again. If you are right, what benefit do I a gain by Christ's death at Calvary? Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law!

Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Carry each others burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal 6:2
In other words, love your neighbour as yourself

This is a work. Granted, this is a God directed work under the New Covenant. This is also a Command, too. Not a Command from the Old Covenant but a Command from the New Covenant. Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Certain commands in the New Testament have consequences in not obeying them. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). If you hate your brother you have no eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3:15). But the effort or work in obeying these commands is not by our own power. It is by the power of God or Christ working in us. Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. For Christ does the good work within us.

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stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
What you continually state Jason is a person has a righteousness before God of observing the Ten Commandments/moral law. Paul never differentiates the moral law from the mosaic law when he speaks of not being under a law of righteousness before God
I repeat yet again. If you are right, what benefit do I a gain by Christ's death at Calvary? Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law!

stuart lawrence · Oct 28, 2015

Jason0047 said:
This is a work. Granted, this is a God directed work under the New Covenant. This is also a Command, too. Not a Command from the Old Covenant but a Command from the New Covenant. Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Certain commands in the New Testament have consequences in not obeying them. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). If you hate your brother you have no eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3;15). But the effort or work in obeying these commands is not by our own power. It is by the power of God or Christ working in us. Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. For Christ does the good work within us.

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Gal 6:2 Love fulfils the law!

Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
What you continually state Jason is a person has a righteousness before God of observing the moral law. Paul never differentiates the moral law from the mosaic law when he speaks of not being under a law of righteousness before God
I repeat yet again. If you are right, what benefit do I a gain by Christ's death at Calvary? Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law!

The Bible is not written in such a way that we prefer (So as to understand it in how we would like it to be). Paul makes it very clear many times that a believer cannot commit certain sins like murder, hate, lying, etc. (Which is a moral issue) and inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and he knows nothing. The doctrine of Godliness is the same thing as the teaching of common basic morality. The Gentiles did that which was in the Law of Moses by their very nature. But they still needed a Savior because everyone has sinned. People need their past records erased whereby they can then walk brand new in Christ with a new heart.

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
What you continually state Jason is a person has a righteousness before God of observing the Ten Commandments/moral law. Paul never differentiates the moral law from the mosaic law when he speaks of not being under a law of righteousness before God
I repeat yet again. If you are right, what benefit do I a gain by Christ's death at Calvary? Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law!

Hate to break it to you but Paul does tell us to be moral by loving others (Which fulfills the Old Law).

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

Loving others is a work. Granted, it is a God directed work and not a man directed work (like with the Jews trying to obey the Law of Moses alone in order to be justified or saved).

As for the Sabbath Command: Well, that really is not a moral law but it is a ceremonial law. Moral laws are even known amongst the Gentiles for their heart bares witness of what they know to be good and right. However, some folks just ignore their moral compasses, though.

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Gal 6:2 Love fulfils the law!

God is love (1 John 4:8). And if God lives in a person, then the love of God or the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in their life. For anyone that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
You need to study Romans 5-8

I'm not writing that all out for you.

I can say the same for you, but that really does not answer my points back I made in Scripture, though.

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

In fact, even a believer's very foundation of their faith is based on a work or action on their behalf. We are called by way of prayer unto God and asked Him to forgive us of our sins, and we asked Him into our heart (Believing that He died and was risen so as to save us). Granted, this prayer (or call unto Christ) is not a man directed work, but it is a God directed work.

Why do folks think our continued faith in Him would be any different?

James says faith without works (i.e. God directed works) is dead.

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
When you are brought up under heavy legalism you only have two ways to go. Either you become crushed and give up in the faith, or you become hard nosed and Phariseecal. My sister went the latter way, there is little love in that. She looked down on those with less academic qualities than herself, she looked down on anyone who smoked, drank alcohol and much else, and she was in earnest the Ten Commandments must be obeyed to attain Heaven. She was as we all knew a very unhappy person. It was hard to see her as my sister most of the time, we were so different and she looked down on me as well.
When she was in her early fifties, my late wife and I went to visit her with my mother. My mother told us she had changed. I was extremely sceptical, I knew my sister only too well. But I could not believe the woman who stood before me when I entered her house. Her face shone with love and peace, gone was her critical attitude of others, she had real love emanating from her. She laughed in a relaxed manner, she could not before.
She told me she knew now Christianity was not about striving to be good enough. What a change, it was so sad she had to live so much of her life miserable before grace discovered her

There are two wrong extremes that people make with Soteriology. Antinomianism or Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. If a person is saved it is because Christ lives within them whereby the works of Christ will be evident in their lives. If sin is what is only evident, then they serving another master that is not God or Christ. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does evil hates the light (John 3:20).

See, when a person repents of their sins and accepts Christ and believes in His death and resurrection, they are taking a step forward in righteousness. Not their own righteousness, but within the righteousness of God. This righteousness of the Lord continues in a believer's life. The more a person conforms to the image of the Son, the more the Substitionary Atonement is a reality for the believer. Again, the Bible describes faith as both a belief and as an action (See Hebrews 11).

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Bible Highlighter · Oct 28, 2015

Actually, if you want to a testimony against OSAS personally: Well, I have discussed OSAS with many people over the past 4 years (And also in person, too). In my dealings with OSAS proponents, I have been called some pretty bad stuff many times and I was attacked verbally (Wherein I did not do so towards them). Most of my dealings have been primarily hostile and in many cases, Scripture is not offered back to verses that I have put forth.

In fact, I believe I was banned because of my constant attack against the belief of OSAS at another website. They said I was judging other people's salvation, but nowhere did I ever attack anyone's salvation personally. They merely did not like me preaching the truth of God's Word. This is all to the glory of Jesus Christ (or course). For Jesus was hated by others.

Anyways, my faith in loving others unconditionally (Even my enemies) has only grown the more stronger in my belief on the Biblical Teaching of Conditional Salvation. I have prayed for those who were really hateful towards me in regards to this topic. I have a love and a peace in my heart that can only come from God.

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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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