True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Question: Who are the "double minded" in your world view?

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stuart lawrence said:
Was noah sinless?

Was noah sinless? No, he got drunk one night

Was Abraham sinless? No! He went to Egypt, passed his wife off as his sister and allowed her to be taken in pharaohs palace so she may become his wife. Pharoah showered gifts on Abraham. Did Abraham then admit the truth? No, he enjoyed his good fortune. It took an act of God to change things. I wonder, with your theology how you would have viewed Abrahams security with God if you had of been there in Egypt at the time

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

If we claim to be without sin,we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John 1:8

The ball is in your court. You can either choose to believe the above verse or change it so as to make it say what you want it to say.

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

Why is James telling Christians to confess their sins if they are sinless? Are they in danger of hell?

We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, and able to keep their whole body in check. James 3:2

How can we all stumble in many ways if we have reached perfection?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Was noah sinless?

Noah was certainly not getting drunk while he was a preacher of righteousness to the rest of the wicked world. As I said before, I am not denying that believers can sin and or make mistakes along their road to being perfected in Christ. The point I was making is that Noah could not look to anyone around him so as to determine his walk by faith with God.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Well there are double minded Christian. They say one thing but their lives do not reflect what they insist/preach. They have one mind for public consumption and another mind for their private life

Uh, no. A double minded man is one who tries to serve two masters. He tries to serve both God and sin (i.e. the devil). But it doesn't work like that. One has to choose this day in whom they will serve.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Paul understood the truth Jason

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ

I repeat, I have never met any Christian from various denominations in forty years who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ. You have a head theology that cannot possibly be lived out in your life or anyone elses. You have to address real people and real issues.

The letter always killed the spirit gives life.

Well, when you say, "I have never met", this is telling me that you are trying to build your faith based on sight. It does not work like that. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Oh, and yes. I am aware the Spirit gives life and that the Old Covenant letter of the Law kills.

Many in the Old Covenant were killed for disobeying certain Commands of God. But Jesus came not so as to Judge but to save whereby the Spirit can transform our hearts and lives so as to give us a new life in the LORD will "sin" no longer enslaves us. For one is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Noah got drunk as we bo

Jason0047 said:
Noah was certainly not getting drunk while he was a preacher of righteousness to the rest of the wicked world. As I said before, I am not denying that believers can sin and or make mistakes along their road to being perfected in Christ. The point I was making is that Noah could not look to anyone around him so as to determine his walk by faith with God.

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Noah got drunk as we both know

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

Actually the KJV renders this more accurately. It says FAULTS and not sins.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16).

Why is James telling Christians to confess their sins if they are sinless? Are they in danger of hell?

But even if you are adamant this must be translated as "sins" these would not be sins that would lead unto spiritual death. Nowhere does James support the idea of living unrighteously or commiting sin so that grace may abound. James says if a man does not bridle his tongue even, his religion is in vain.

We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, and able to keep their whole body in check. James 3:2

How can we all stumble in many ways if we have reached perfection?

Again, the KJV renders this one more accurately. It says in many ways we OFFEND all. How do we OFFEND others? By letting the light of Christ shine among us by letting His work flow thru our lives.

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

People are offended because they prefer doing evil things to get by.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Well, when you say, "I have never met", this is telling me that you are trying to build your faith based on sight. It does not work like that. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Oh, and yes. I am aware the Spirit gives life and that the Old Covenant letter of the Law kills.

Many in the Old Covenant were killed for disobeying certain Commands of God. But Jesus came not so as to Judge but to save whereby the Spirit can transform our hearts and lives so as to give us a new life in the LORD will "sin" no longer enslaves us. For one is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

...

A slave of righteousness LEADING to holiness. If you were sinless you would not be being led to holiness you would be perfectly holy.

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Actually the KJV renders this more accurately. It says FAULTS and not sins.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16).

But even if you are adamant this must be translated as "sins" these would not be sins that would lead unto spiritual death. Nowhere does James support the idea of living unrighteously or commiting sin so that grace may abound. James says if a man does not bridle his tongue even, his religion is in vain.

Again, the KJV renders this one more accurately. It says in many ways we OFFEND all. How do we OFFEND others? By letting the light of Christ shine among us by letting His work flow thru our lives.

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

People are offended because they prefer doing evil things to get by.

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So are you actually admitting nt christians sinned but not sins that led to death

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Noah got drunk as we both know

As I stated before, I said I believe saints can sin even after walking righteously. This does not erase the rest of the words in the New Testament about how we are to walk perfectly in Christ. For why do you think Enoch was taken up?

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Well, when you say, "I have never met", this is telling me that you are trying to build your faith based on sight. It does not work like that. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Oh, and yes. I am aware the Spirit gives life and that the Old Covenant letter of the Law kills.

Many in the Old Covenant were killed for disobeying certain Commands of God. But Jesus came not so as to Judge but to save whereby the Spirit can transform our hearts and lives so as to give us a new life in the LORD will "sin" no longer enslaves us. For one is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

...

Under the old covenant they were not born again.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
So are you actually admitting nt christians sinned but not sins that led to death

No. Your not getting it. God's Word sets the standard that all believers CAN live perfectly. Looking to those saints who have not lived perfectly is not a measuring stick to disqualify the verses that say that we can be perfect and holy. Scripture has to be looked at as a whole. One truth does not nullify another truth just because we find it uncomfortable or unsettling for us to hear about it.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Sonw

Jason0047 said:
Actually the KJV renders this more accurately. It says FAULTS and not sins.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16).

But even if you are adamant this must be translated as "sins" these would not be sins that would lead unto spiritual death. Nowhere does James support the idea of living unrighteously or commiting sin so that grace may abound. James says if a man does not bridle his tongue even, his religion is in vain.

Again, the KJV renders this one more accurately. It says in many ways we OFFEND all. How do we OFFEND others? By letting the light of Christ shine among us by letting His work flow thru our lives.

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

People are offended because they prefer doing evil things to get by.

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some are upset because they understand the damage done by demanding sinless perfection. In other words, the demand I'd. Perfectly obey the law or you are in dangers of the fires of hell. And yet, Paul pleads in his letters for people not to seek such a justification

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
No. Your not getting it. God's Word sets the standard that all believers CAN live perfectly. Looking to those saints who have not lived perfectly is not a measuring stick to disqualify the verses that say that we can be perfect and holy. Scripture has to be looked at as a whole. One truth does not nullify another truth just because we find it uncomfortable or unsettling for us to hear about it.

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The bible does not state anyone can perfectly uphold the law which is what sinless perfection entails. Please read James 2:10, Gal3:10&11, Rom 4:14&15

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Under the old covenant they were not born again.

Yes, they were. Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

Also, here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):

Side Note:

Please take note that this is NOT what Jesus looks like in any way. Jesus is not white or European. Jesus is Jewish and we do not know what his face actually looks like. Also, he did not have long hair, either.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, they were. Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

I will be responding to this post in half an hour at which time I will be using a computer

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Sonw
some are upset because they understand the damage done by demanding sinless perfection. In other words, the demand I'd. Perfectly obey the law or you are in dangers of the fires of hell. And yet, Paul pleads in his letters for people not to seek such a justification

With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. Also, again, I am not stating that all sin is the same, either. There are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (See 1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are those sins that lead unto the Second Death or the Lake of Fire (See Revelation 21:8).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I will be responding to this post in half an hour at which time I will be using a computer

Well, the question remains: Are you going to respond just to rehash what you believe, or are you going to actually carefully consider each word that is being said in these verses with an open heart and mind?

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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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