True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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GDunn

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Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

Sin is transgression of the law 1john 3:4

The christian has a righteousness apart from the law rom 3:21&22

The christian has no righteousness of observing the law/ works of the law rom3:20

The above is only possible I Jesus died for all a christians sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Refute that from the texts given

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This was in relation to PAUL'S authority, not even Jesus OR his God's authority.

What is there to FEAR about if'n you got your salvation in your back pocket, a free pass to heaven no matter what, since you ONCE affirmed the lordship of Jesus?
 
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GDunn

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I already provided verses that show we are not lords over people. Jesus said the greatest among you serves. I just do not really see those in the Catholic church as being in humble positions but in positions of looking religious and holy (as a part of a show) before other men. Jesus said beward of the scribes who wear long robes so as to be seen in the market place. This truth would obviously still hold true today. For there is nothing new under the sun; And the first religious individuals that I can think of that would fit Jesus' description, would be the priests and or the papacy.

Romans 12:16 says, "Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits"


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I think of non-denom megachurches whereby those leaders got nice TEEF. Such as em, Joel Osteen Houston.

Hollywood stars to the heavens. Probably SMELL nice too.

HEY you think Jesus SMELLED as nice as Joel does smell?
 
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Open Heart

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I already provided verses that show we are not lords over people.
I stand by what I said about overseers who are servants. The Pope has made it clear that bishops and priests are to be servants. Whether an individual bishop or priest complies with that or falls into sin is their own personal choice.
 
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GDunn

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Hello. The word Bishop (episkopos) translates as "Overseer."

Paul could rebuke Peter because Paul was a fellow Apostle.

He was a brother baptized in Spirit. And in Spirit he rebuked Peter the ROCK of the Church. And only BY Spirit could Peter have been in concordance with him and others at the Council of Jerusalem. And NOT been offended.
 
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I think of non-denom megachurches whereby those leaders got nice TEEF. Such as em, Joel Osteen Houston.

Hollywood stars to the heavens. Probably SMELL nice too.

HEY you think Jesus SMELLED as nice as Joel does smell?
While I will pray for him, at the time of this writing, I would include Mr. Olsteen among the group such as the papacy, as well (Unless of course he repents). I include Olsteen along side the pope because they both seek to be seen by men in being a great religious figure. For when the pope comes to town, people freak out and think he is all awesome and stuff. He is just a man. No man should be lifted up. Only God or Jesus Christ (Second person of the Triune Godhead or the Trinity) should be lifted up and praised.

Olsteen's gospel is a prosperity gospel.
He sees wealth and riches as likened to having God's favor.
It is true, God did allow the King of Solomon to possess wealth in the Old Testament. But Solomon did not seek after wealth, though. In the New Testament, God strongly warns the man of God today in seeking after riches. All person has to do is read 1 Timothy chapter 6.


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ToBeLoved

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Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This was in relation to PAUL'S authority, not even Jesus OR his God's authority.

What is there to FEAR about if'n you got your salvation in your back pocket, a free pass to heaven no matter what, since you ONCE affirmed the lordship of Jesus?
What do you mean by "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and it being in relation to Paul's authority?

Are you talking about that Paul thinks that we need to take salvation seriously? I would think we would.

Do you disagree with that?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This was in relation to PAUL'S authority, not even Jesus OR his God's authority.

What is there to FEAR about if'n you got your salvation in your back pocket, a free pass to heaven no matter what, since you ONCE affirmed the lordship of Jesus?
What do you think salvation is about? Do you believe that Jesus saves per Romans 5,6 and 7?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think you need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling if you are about to sin. What would be included is false theology...and OSAS and A Free Pass to Heaven would qualify.
A person only works out their salvation one time.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Don't be insulting. I'm sure you've run into people who interpret the NT differently than you before.
No one can misinterpret the New Testament that badly to think that the early church was Catholic. Catholic's do not even encourage people to read the Bible. Let's get real here.
 
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Jesus said to the Pharisees that they will die in their sins if they do not believe in who He was (John 8:24). Jesus declared that he had seen Abraham and they laughed at him. Then Jesus later said to the Pharisees that before Abraham was, He was the "I AM." (John 8:58). When he said this to them, they all went ape crazy and wanted to stone him. In other words, Jesus was declaring that He was the "I AM" from Exodus chapter 3. This is just one of the many nuggest of truths in the Scriptures of Jesus declaring that He was God. For even Thomas declared to Jesus that He was His Lord and GOD. So I just do not see how you can deny that Jesus is God when the Scriptures clearly teach that Christ is God.

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So Jesus, God Himself dying for our sins on the cross was not enough? When Jesus says He makes us righteous and gives us His righteousness that is not enough?

I hope your not planning on getting into heaven on your own merit. That would not work out well for you.
What must we do to do the works of God? Believe on Him, right? But what would entail in believing in Jesus? Is it a belief on Jesus of our own imagining? Or is it the Jesus described in the Bible who talked about how if one looks upon a woman in lust they are in danger of being cast bodily into hell-fire?

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GDunn

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So Jesus, God Himself dying for our sins on the cross was not enough? When Jesus says He makes us righteous and gives us His righteousness that is not enough?

I hope your not planning on getting into heaven on your own merit. That would not work out well for you.

No...the cumulations of good works ain't gonna do it, since no man is righteous. This doesn't mean he sinned an ITTY BITTY sin and is now going to hell, as the Epistle to Barnabas has...what this meant was that a man was never able to do SHEMA to the requirement of God.

Jesus said a man must be REBORN in Spirit and this is the pentecostal baptism. What he was in my view speaking of is the Ideal Christian life, meaning there may be some exceptions to the Heaven rule, as the criminal on the cross gave no evidence of this baptism.

What Jesus propititates is the GAP of what you should have did and what you did. IF he so chooses to do so, since he said not everyone who calls him LORD is gonna necessarily get that propititation.
 
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ToBeLoved

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What must we do to do the works of God? Believe on Him, right? But what would entail in believing in Jesus? Is it a belief on Jesus of our own imagining? Or is it the Jesus described in the Bible who talked about how if one looks upon a woman in lust they are in danger of being cast bodily into hell-fire?

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Well the Jesus of the Bible says He forgives sin.

Ephesians 1:6-14
to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
 
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Well the Jesus of the Bible says He forgives sin.

Ephesians 1:6-14
to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

First, the passage you quote here does not undo or erase the passage of Jesus talking about how looking at a woman in lust can cause one to be cast into hell-fire. Second, you quote a passage in Ephesians about how we have redemption thru his blood. This is very good stuff. But how do we apply the blood to our lives? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. This makes sense because 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing him if we find that we are keeping his commandments (i.e. walking in the light). 1 John 2:4 says that he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in him (Compare this with 1 John 1:6). For whosever keeps his Word, the love of God is perfected and they know that they are in Him (1 John 2:5).

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ToBeLoved

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First, the passage you quote here does not undo or erase the passage of Jesus talking about how looking at a woman in lust can cause one to be cast into hell-fire. Second, you quote a passage in Ephesians about how we have redemption thru his blood. This is very good stuff. But how do we apply the blood to our lives? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. This makes sense because 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing him if we find that we are keeping his commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in him. For whosever keeps his Word, the love of God is perfected and they know that they are in Him (1 John 2:5).

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Now what are the verses where you say Jesus talks about how looking at a woman in lust can cause one to be cast into hell fire?
 
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ToBeLoved

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First, the passage you quote here does not undo or erase the passage of Jesus talking about how looking at a woman in lust can cause one to be cast into hell-fire. Second, you quote a passage in Ephesians about how we have redemption thru his blood. This is very good stuff. But how do we apply the blood to our lives? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin. This makes sense because 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing him if we find that we are keeping his commandments (i.e. walking in the light). 1 John 2:4 says that he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in him (Compare this with 1 John 1:6). For whosever keeps his Word, the love of God is perfected and they know that they are in Him (1 John 2:5).

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Walking in the light does not mean perfection, Jason.

We are told to be the light. We are His servants here on earth and we represent Him. Of course we have His light.

But if Jesus expected perfection, He would have kept the Law, but He didn't. He gave us the New Covenant.
 
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GDunn

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No. Jesus gives US HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Wrong. The belief in Jesus brings a Circumcision of Heart, and this is the PROMISE of the Father. It is a supernatural change in man, and he is REBORN. This is what God does. And we love Him back. This is Shema, to love your God with all of your heart soul and might. This is COVENANT, the New Covenant. He gave you give back. He gives you more, you give Him more.

Jesus does not fill in a gap of what you should have did and what you did.

What DO you think propititation is? Oh, I remember. A free pass to heaven.

What do you define the pentecostal baptism to be? That is an odd way of saying whatever you are trying to say, which I have no diea.

The upper room Promise of the Father at pentecost. The first 3000 and 5000 got a full complement of this Promise.

And what is the Epistle to Barnabas?

Google it and read the first chapter. I got a warning for being nasty so I can't recite what Barnabas did. Not that I think he did anything nasty, but the event itself is too much against the prude mentality here.

This is confusing. Do you have scripture so I can follow?

Conceive the event of Peter before and after. BEFORE he was baptized in Spirit he denied Jesus three times. By all accounts he MAY have been liable to hell as Judas was. AFTER the upper room in Jerusalem he was a CHAMPION for Jesus and his God. NOW he is a fully vested believer. He AFFIRMED Jesus was Christ before anyone ELSE did. This is roughly analogous to modern day "believing." So how does one who AFFIRMS Jesus as the Christ then deny him?

Fear? Human frailty? Both? He wasn't reborn yet, right? Isn't it the truth?
 
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Walking in the light does not mean perfection, Jason.

Nowhere does it say you can walk in darkness and also walk in the light at the same time for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you. It simply says walk in the light. You are seeing something in the text that is not there.

As for ceasing from sin (Sinless Perfectionism): Well, the Bible does teach that (Regardless if you deny such a truth). Again, read 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Psalm 119:11, John 5:14, John 8:11, Ephesians 4:26-27. Matthew 5:48.

We are told to be the light.

No. Christ is the light. We are to let His light shine upon men. We are not to be that light.

We are His servants here on earth and we represent Him.

How can we represent Him if our eye is in darkness? What did Jesus say about that?

Of course we have His light.

Christ is excusively the Light.

But if Jesus expected perfection, He would have kept the Law, but He didn't. He gave us the New Covenant.

Jesus did not disobey or break the Old Covenant Law. If he did then He could not fufill the Law upon the cross. He also would have been accused by the Pharisees in his trials for breaking the Law, too. Yes, Jesus taught primarily New Covenant during His Earthly ministry before the cross, but that does not mean He broke the current Old Law that was in effect still at the time of His ministry. That would not make any sense if Jesus broke the very laws of God while in the flesh of a man. That would mean Jesus sinned. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). And yet, the Scriptures say Jesus did no sin (1 Peter 2:22).


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ToBeLoved

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Jesus did not disobey or break the Old Covenant Law. If he did then He could not fufill the Law upon the cross. He also would have been accused by the Pharisees in his trials for breaking the Law, too. Yes, Jesus taught primarily New Covenant during His Earthly ministry before the cross, but that does not mean He broke the current Old Law that was in effect still at the time of His ministry. That would not make any sense if Jesus broke the very laws of God while in the flesh of a man. That would mean Jesus sinned. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). And yet, the Scriptures say Jesus did no sin (1 Peter 2:22).
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I was talking about Jesus giving us the New Covenant.

If Jesus had been looking for perfection in mankind, why would He have brought the New Covenant? Why would He not have just kept the Old Covenant in place?

That's what I was saying. Not that He broke anything or sinned.
 
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