True Grace and the Law

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reddogs

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Grace is a free gift like when your parents bought you a new car that you needed to replace that old unsafe broken down heap. You didnt deserve it, you couldnt afford it, they gave you the car so you would have a reliable transportation out of love. So would it make sense if you accepted their gift and then kept driving the broken down hell on wheels that couldnt get you to your destination. Has their purpose of getting you there come true, no because you didnt use the gift they gave you. You have to let go of the old car and drive the new car with new parts in order to accept their gift of reliable transportation and make your destination, so it is with grace.

Many Christians have been deceived into believing that grace is a doctrine of forgiveness that has no moral conditions attached, and nothing more. There are many who consider themselves christian or sit in church pews today who will hear; "I never knew you: depart from me..." Why? Because the people have forgotten that God is holy. God has been blottted out and replaced with a false worship and doctrine that the sinner is who defines sin not God or his laws and many now follow a false spirit that tells them sin is alright and they dont have to repent or turn from sin as they will get a pass to eternal life even with a unchanged heart full of sin. This is why Jesus plainly states that those with iniquity will be turned away: Luke 7:21-23 "21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Many now vainly believe in salvation without holiness, that worship without godliness is acceptable, and that indifference to the divine truths in God's word is permissible.That is why Christ says " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" as they are unrepentant and unbelieving. Sinners need first to know they need a Saviour with his gift of grace or they will not have a reason to give up sin and be drawn to accept a Saviour.


In the book of Romans Paul preached the law as a preparation for receiving Christ. The doctrine of righteousness by faith is only properly presented when it is joined to the biblical doctrine of judgment. People need to be told that the "wrath of God [will soon be] revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men." (Romans 1:17,18)

The sinner who says the binding claims of the Law of God are discarded, misunderstands Christ's mission. It was the apostle Paul himself who wrote, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified." (Romans 2:13) If it is true that no one is saved by their good works it is equally true that no one is saved in sin still loving and holding on to it. Many who profess to be followers of Christ have forgotten this.







What is grace? Let's go to our Bibles for an answer. Lets look at Titus 2:11-14:
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.​
Grace involves how we live, what we are changed from, and what we are changed to. Grace involves salvation. In Titus two, Paul is discussing behavior, and in the ninth verse he points out that it is because "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" that we will live differently.

The very first thing that this grace teaches us is to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. Revelation 21:27 assures us that nothing that defiles or makes a lie will enter into heaven. Thus it is immediately made certain that unrepented sin will not enter heaven and no one who follows a false spirit or false gospel that allows sin will enter heaven. Many will be deceived by false and deceiving spirits that teach a false gospel that teach them this lie, that no change from sin is needed in our lives or our hearts. The true gospel intimately impacts how we live and our hearts and mind.

The grace of God is the process which brings salvation. But it is not salvation within itself, but it covers sin so a change can occur in the hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. The grace of God is a quality of God, a description of the mercy of His character. It is sent out in search of us. We do not deserve it or merit it, but it has been sent out in search of us since God is trying to bring salvation to us. Grace is that quality of who our heavenly Father is that makes salvation available to us. It encompasses His mercy and His attributes. But grace does not equal salvation. Salvation depends on the total application of grace to us.

Through grace God wants to bring us salvation. That salvation means that we will live differently. We will deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. There is a way that we should live under grace, and that is "soberly, righteously, and godly." People want to talk about God's "extravagant grace;" they want to emphasize the quantity of it; but He wants to emphasize the quality of it. And so He says that when, through grace, salvation is occurring in your life, your life will be one bearing the qualities of sobriety, righteousness, and godliness.

Those are qualities of the actual grace that brings actual salvation. If you have grace, you will be awake and clear-headed. If you have grace, your life will be a vivacious orchestra of righteous actions. If you have grace, your life will be a pungent expression of godliness cutting its way through the darkness engulfing the world.

These aren't false gospel substitute which says you can continue with your sinful lifestye and have eternal life even with unrepented sin; they are the real changes from the Holy Spirit that fills our hearts and minds so that sin loses its hold over us.

When they print the horsepower or gas mileage for new cars a lot of car enthusiast notice that "performance always lags" from what is posted. They feel that they can never achived what is listed in the specs and this "performance lag" is what to always expect. But when it comes to God, performance doesn't always lag. Enoch walked with God, and the Father took Him home to heaven. Was Enoch's experience lagging? Not at all. And of course, we would all agree that Jesus' experience was never lagging. Jesus shows us clearly that experience does not always lag.

So when does our verse say that this sober, righteous, godly salvation experience is supposed to occur? "In this present world," or some translations have it, "in this present age." We learn in the text that we were redeemed not so that continue in our sin or so "our performance could lag", but "that He might redeem us from all iniquity." Now, iniquity is sin. Jesus has bought us back from sin. Sin doesn't own us anymore. He bought us back to "purify" a special kind of people to Himself, a people zealous for God that bear fruits of the Spirit. Grace -- real grace -- means real Christians, changed people, people moving away from sin, people who are being changed by the Holy Spirit.

Grace is not about a spiritual tally of sin, but Christs open invitation to let him come into your heart to cleanse it. Letting him in is grace, letting him cleanse your heart brings salvation. Grace is real. Grace brings salvation. Salvation is real. Salvation showcases grace.
The grace of God that brings salvation is supposed to be on bold display in our lives. But the Evil one is afraid that we will catch hold of what grace means and then live it before a world in moral-meltdown.

Real grace means release from bondage. We are to walk in newness of life. "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection" says Romans 6:5. If we will do just as Jesus did -- if we will lay hold upon the power of the Father, of our own selves doing nothing (John 5:30), yet in fact doing what we see the Father do (John 5:19) empowered by grace, we will not serve sin any longer. We'll recognize, as we are shown in Romans 6:6 that "our old man is crucified with Him" when we lay hold of grace. The power of our fallen nature combined with our habit-patterns of sin -- the wicked characters that we have become -- will be broken and reshaped and renewed as we call to Him for power and stop serving sin.

So this is True Grace, Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ:
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

When we accept Christ as our personal Savior, we are joined with Him -- joined in His death and joined in His resurrection. He was made to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. The glory are all His; the shame of the sin and wickedness we have done are ours. He stepped between us and the ultimate wages of sin, received our penalty, empowered us to live differently, and handed us His salvation.







Paul then makes clear in Romans 6:14-15 just where he was going on what is grace. He shows us the understanding of truth of what it meand that we are not under the law, but under grace:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.​
Remember, the problem is not the law, it is the dominion of sin. Jesus came to save from sin (Matthew 1:21), not from the law. The Law is the divine standard which defines sin:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We are under grace. Grace makes obedience to the law possible and real. So what shall we say then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 

Eila

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Many Christians have been deceived into believing that grace is a doctrine of forgiveness that has no moral conditions attached, and nothing more. There are many who consider themselves christian or sit in church pews today who will hear; "I never knew you: depart from me..." Why? Because the people have forgotten that God is holy. God has been blottted out and replaced with a false worship and doctrine that the sinner is who defines sin not God or his laws and many now follow a false spirit that tells them sin is alright and they dont have to repent or turn from sin as they will get a pass to eternal life even with a unchanged heart full of sin.

Grace is unmerited favor. We can do nothing to earn grace or keep grace. Grace is a gift of God.

Ephesians 2 "6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One). 7He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]"

Grace involves how we live, what we are changed from, and what we are changed to. Grace involves salvation. In Titus two, Paul is discussing behavior, and in the ninth verse he points out that it is because "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" that we will live differently.

Grace is a work of God and not our work. Grace is what God does. Yes, the grace of God changes us and the fruit of a changed heart is good works. It was God who justified us. It was God who sanctified us. It is our job to grow in maturity and the Holy Spirit helps us do that.

Real grace means release from bondage. We are to walk in newness of life. "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection" says Romans 6:5. If we will do just as Jesus did -- if we will lay hold upon the power of the Father, of our own selves doing nothing (John 5:30), yet in fact doing what we see the Father do (John 5:19) empowered by grace, we will not serve sin any longer. We'll recognize, as we are shown in Romans 6:6 that "our old man is crucified with Him" when we lay hold of grace. The power of our fallen nature combined with our habit-patterns of sin -- the wicked characters that we have become -- will be broken and reshaped and renewed as we call to Him for power and stop serving sin.

Yes, when I came to Christ I died. My old man died. I was recreated in Christ Jesus. My spirit was reborn and I have His perfection. I don't lose that if I sin. My actions in my body may not reflect the perfection in my spirit. That is what maturing is all about - not salvation.


Paul then makes clear in Romans 6:14-15 just where he was going on what is grace. He shows us the understanding of truth of what it meand that we are not under the law, but under grace:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.​

We have liberty as new creations in Christ, but we should not abuse that liberty.
 
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freeindeed2

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Grace is a free gift
I agree. Most of the rest of you post is a gradual spin to return the reader to the law (actually only a portion of the law) instead of to the one who has given us unmerited favor, independent of our own works. Your posts are so long (probably by design) and are difficult to respond to. Even so, I agree with you completely to this point!:thumbsup:

reddogs said:
like when your parents bought you a new car that you needed to replace that old unsafe broken down heap. You didnt deserve it, you couldnt afford it, they gave you the car so you would have a reliable transportation out of love. You have to let go of the old car and drive the new car with new parts in order to accept their gift of reliable transportation and make your destination, so it is with grace.
So, we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works - so that nobody can boast about what they "do". The new car/vehicle is salvation through Christ alone because of what he accomplished for us, and the old car/vehicle is the law which only condemns us.

If that is what you were saying I would agree. However, I know you're preaching the law instead of Chirst.

reddogs said:
Many Christians have been deceived into believing that grace is a doctrine of forgiveness that has no moral conditions attached, and nothing more.
Grace is a free gift to us. The price was high and paid by Christ, but it's free and UNDESERVED to us. It sounds like you believe that grace is only given to those who "do" certain things (subscribe to a conditional moral code) or that grace is "maintained" by "doing" certain things. If that is the case, then grace is not free, nor is it unmerrited favor. It would be payment for what we "do" and we would earn it. But the Bible is clear that the only thing we earn (wages) is death.

I don't know ANYONE who teaches what you're saying they teach. God himself lives in the believer, so to accuse believers of having no morality is to accuse the Holy Spirit (God himself) of having none.

reddogs said:
There are many who consider themselves christian or sit in church pews today who will hear; "I never knew you: depart from me..." Why?
They were not in relationship with Jesus (the Way, Truth, and Life). They believed that their works earned them eternal life, that they play a part in saving themselves. They did not trust Jesus for their salvation, but instead relied on their ability to "do" something themselves. They relied on their own righteousness instead of being credited with the righteousness of Christ. They attempt to "do good works" apart from Christ, so they "work" hard, but God does not know them. There is no salvation apart from Christ.

reddogs said:
Because the people have forgotten that God is holy. God has been blottted out and replaced with a false worship and doctrine that the sinner is who defines sin not God or his laws and many now follow a false spirit that tells them sin is alright and they dont have to repent or turn from sin as they will get a pass to eternal life even with a unchanged heart full of sin.
We are saved by believing in the Son of God (Jesus) for salvation, not by following the old covenant. Your words are a complete denial of the power of God (Holy Spirit) living in the believer. The only way we can be changed is through the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. We are not changed by keeping the law.

reddogs said:
This is why Jesus plainly states that those with iniquity will be turned away: Luke 7:21-23 "21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The will of the Father is accomplished for us by the Holy Spirit living in us. Those without the Holy Spirit are lost.

reddogs said:
God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Many now vainly believe in salvation without holiness, that worship without godliness is acceptable, and that indifference to the divine truths in God's word is permissible.
Salvation is through Christ alone. We have no holiness or godliness or righteousness without being credited it by Christ. Jesus is salvation.

reddogs said:
That is why Christ says " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" as they are unrepentant and unbelieving. Sinners need first to know they need a Saviour with his gift of grace or they will not have a reason to give up sin and be drawn to accept a Saviour.
Sinful fallen human flesh cannot 'give up' sin on its own. That's why we need the transformation that comes only when the Holy Spirit is doing HIS work in us. Giving up sin is not our work. It's a nice idea, but we have no power over sin (especially since it's our nature).

reddogs said:
In the book of Romans Paul preached the law as a preparation for receiving Christ. The doctrine of righteousness by faith is only properly presented when it is joined to the biblical doctrine of judgment. People need to be told that the "wrath of God [will soon be] revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men." (Romans 1:17,18)
There is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus! Obeying the law is NOT a pre-requisite for receiving Christ. Righteousness by faith is NOT righteousness by law-keeping...if it were there would be no need for Christ to have come. We are no longer under the wrath of God when we believe in Jesus (the ONE God sent) for our salvation.

reddogs said:
The sinner who says the binding claims of the Law of God are discarded, misunderstands Christ's mission. It was the apostle Paul himself who wrote, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified." (Romans 2:13) If it is true that no one is saved by their good works it is equally true that no one is saved in sin still loving and holding on to it. Many who profess to be followers of Christ have forgotten this.
But ALL who have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and believe in Him for salvation will be saved, apart from keeping the law. Righteousness by faith is not law keeping - it is trusting in Jesus to save us from our sins, and we are guaranteed all promises because God literally lives in us and leads and guids us according to the will of the Father.


reddogs said:
What is grace? Let's go to our Bibles for an answer. Lets look at Titus 2:11-14:
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.​
Grace involves how we live, what we are changed from, and what we are changed to. Grace involves salvation. In Titus two, Paul is discussing behavior, and in the ninth verse he points out that it is because "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" that we will live differently.
Grace is God's work, not ours. Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works.


reddogs said:
The very first thing that this grace teaches us is to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.
Grace teaches us to trust God.

reddogs said:
Revelation 21:27 assures us that nothing that defiles or makes a lie will enter into heaven. Thus it is immediately made certain that unrepented sin will not enter heaven and no one who follows a false spirit or false gospel that allows sin will enter heaven. Many will be deceived by false and deceiving spirits that teach a false gospel that teach them this lie, that no change from sin is needed in our lives or our hearts. The true gospel intimately impacts how we live and our hearts and mind.
Which is why we must have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us through faith in him. His Spirit is guaranteed to all who trust in HIM.

The grace of God is the process which brings salvation. But it is not salvation within itself, but it covers sin so a change can occur in the hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.
Grace is IMMEDIATE when we believe in Jesus for salvation!

Grace doesn't 'cover' sin. The sacrifices 'covered' sin. God destroyed sin's control over us through the sacrifice of Jesus. The blood was presented almost 2000 years ago and our debt has been cancelled! Christ paid it for us. In the new covenant sins are FORGIVEN and FORGOTTEN! They are remembered NO MORE!
 
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freeindeed2

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Shorter initial posts would make it much easier to respond.

reddogs said:
aThrough grace God wants to bring us salvation. That salvation means that we will live differently. We will deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. There is a way that we should live under grace, and that is "soberly, righteously, and godly." People want to talk about God's "extravagant grace;" they want to emphasize the quantity of it; but He wants to emphasize the quality of it. And so He says that when, through grace, salvation is occurring in your life, your life will be one bearing the qualities of sobriety, righteousness, and godliness.
Which is all accomplished by the Holy Spirit living in us. A denomination is not the Holy Spirit.

Those are qualities of the actual grace that brings actual salvation. If you have grace, you will be awake and clear-headed.[/quote]
Source for assigning these attributes?

reddogs said:
If you have grace, your life will be a vivacious orchestra of righteous actions. If you have grace, your life will be a pungent expression of godliness cutting its way through the darkness engulfing the world.
Again, this is the work of the Holy Spirit in us! Jesus is the light that shines through us to the world. The Bible doesn't teach "they will know you are mine by your righteous actions"! It's by our love for each other.

reddogs said:
These aren't false gospel substitute which says you can continue with your sinful lifestye and have eternal life even with unrepented sin; they are the real changes from the Holy Spirit that fills our hearts and minds so that sin loses its hold over us.
So let the Holy Spirit do his work. Sin lost its hold when we believed in Jesus for salvation and were given the Holy Spirit in us.

reddogs said:
When they print the horsepower or gas mileage for new cars a lot of car enthusiast notice that "performance always lags" from what is posted. They feel that they can never achived what is listed in the specs and this "performance lag" is what to always expect. But when it comes to God, performance doesn't always lag. Enoch walked with God, and the Father took Him home to heaven. Was Enoch's experience lagging? Not at all. And of course, we would all agree that Jesus' experience was never lagging. Jesus shows us clearly that experience does not always lag.
Please show from Scripture that Enoch was taken to heaven? Hebrews 11, after listing those who had faith (Enoch being one of them) says that they "all died in faith" v.13. And also, in Hebrews 11, after listing all of those who had faith, it says: ""These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn't receive the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

Maybe Enoch is on Venus or something?;)

reddogs said:
So when does our verse say that this sober, righteous, godly salvation experience is supposed to occur? "In this present world," or some translations have it, "in this present age." We learn in the text that we were redeemed not so that continue in our sin or so "our performance could lag", but "that He might redeem us from all iniquity." Now, iniquity is sin. Jesus has bought us back from sin. Sin doesn't own us anymore. He bought us back to "purify" a special kind of people to Himself, a people zealous for God that bear fruits of the Spirit.
They are the 'fruits of the Spirit', NOT 'fruits we bear for the Spirit'. He produces fruit in us.

reddogs said:
Grace -- real grace -- means real Christians, changed people, people moving away from sin, people who are being changed by the Holy Spirit.
I agree as long as you acknowledge that the change is accomplished by the Spirit, not our own actions.

reddogs said:
Grace is not about a spiritual tally of sin, but Christs open invitation to let him come into your heart to cleanse it. Letting him in is grace, letting him cleanse your heart brings salvation. Grace is real. Grace brings salvation. Salvation is real. Salvation showcases grace.
The grace of God that brings salvation is supposed to be on bold display in our lives. But the Evil one is afraid that we will catch hold of what grace means and then live it before a world in moral-meltdown.

Real grace means release from bondage. We are to walk in newness of life. "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection" says Romans 6:5. If we will do just as Jesus did -- if we will lay hold upon the power of the Father, of our own selves doing nothing (John 5:30), yet in fact doing what we see the Father do (John 5:19) empowered by grace, we will not serve sin any longer. We'll recognize, as we are shown in Romans 6:6 that "our old man is crucified with Him" when we lay hold of grace. The power of our fallen nature combined with our habit-patterns of sin -- the wicked characters that we have become -- will be broken and reshaped and renewed as we call to Him for power and stop serving sin.
There's so much to address here. This is all accomplished by the Spirit of Chirst in us. We responded to the Gospel through the prodding of the Holy Spirit. It's all his work in us.

reddogs said:
So this is True Grace, Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ:
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
I completely agree!

reddogs said:
When we accept Christ as our personal Savior, we are joined with Him -- joined in His death and joined in His resurrection. He was made to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. The glory are all His; the shame of the sin and wickedness we have done are ours. He stepped between us and the ultimate wages of sin, received our penalty, empowered us to live differently, and handed us His salvation.
Couldn't agree more! Don't forget it's the Spirit that brought us to the point of accepting Christ after we heard the Good News. And it's the Spirit that does his supernatural work in us to change us. The change is not the result of our works.




reddogs said:
Paul then makes clear in Romans 6:14-15 just where he was going on what is grace. He shows us the understanding of truth of what it meand that we are not under the law, but under grace:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.​
Remember, the problem is not the law, it is the dominion of sin. Jesus came to save from sin (Matthew 1:21), not from the law. The Law is the divine standard which defines sin:


1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We are under grace. Grace makes obedience to the law possible and real. So what shall we say then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
And here is your great leap back to the law/old covenant/10 commandments!!! If you were to look at how well you obey the old covenant/10 commandments, you would realize that you fail miserably! Which, by your own definitions, leaves you in the camp of saying, "Lord, Lord...but I..." and he doesn't know you. If keeping the old law is possible, then why don't you keep it? If obedience to the old law is something you believe is real and can be realized in your sinful flesh, then why do you still mess up? Does that mean the Spirit is NOT in you?

I hope you see the problems with the doctrine of 'perfect obedience' or 'sinless perfection' in sinful, fallen, human, flesh. Anyone who is honest with themselves will realize really quickly that the only way is to be in Christ, credited with HIS righteousness, and the Holy Spirit living in us as our guarantee.
 
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Eila

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Grace basically puts us back to the sinless state of Adam before he fell, but like Cain we can still go into sin and reject God and His divine definition of sin.

No, grace does more than that. Adam walked with God. We have God in us. Adam fall was based on his sin. Grace is based on His sinlessness.
 
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freeindeed2

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No, grace does more than that. Adam walked with God. We have God in us. Adam fall was based on his sin. Grace is based on His sinlessness.
Right! Big difference. And until we receive our new bodies we must live in these 'fallen, sinful flesh' bodies. By the grace of God we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ though, and God lives in us as a guarantee of His promises to us.
 
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reddogs

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But grace does not give you 'carte blanche' to sin, we must continue to grow in a intimate relationship with Christ who tells us God's Law of Love is His also and let the Holy Spirit cleanse our heart so we dont go or want to go back into sin, and that is were you have a problem. Because you do not want to let sin go or repent from sin and you block out anything that shows your sin, you are blind to sin and will stumble and fall and go right back to iniquity.
 
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Eila

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But that does not give you 'carte blanche' to sin, we must continue to grow in a intimate relationship with Christ who tells us God's Law of Love is His also and let the Holy Spirit cleanse our heart so we dont go or want to go back into sin, and that is were you have a problem. Because you do not want to let sin go or repent from sin and you block out anything that shows your sin, you are blind to sin and will stumble and fall and go right back to iniquity.

Born again Christians grow in maturity. We start off as babes. We don't grow in righteousness. We have all His righteousness when we become born again.

Reddogs, why is there so much focus on sin? We are dead to sin and now servants of righteousness.
 
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freeindeed2

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But grace does not give you 'carte blanche' to sin,
Who is saying it does?

reddogs said:
we must continue to grow in a intimate relationship with Christ who tells us God's Law of Love is His also and let the Holy Spirit cleanse our heart so we dont go or want to go back into sin, and that is were you have a problem.
Do you not trust that Jesus will be faithful to complete what he started in us? Why do you believe that when God lives in us he will lead us back into sin? I don't believe that! In fact, II Cor. 3 tells us that the Holy Spirit will cause us to reflect his glory 'more and more'.

And...are you given direct insight from God to point out what you perceive to be the problems of others?

reddogs said:
Because you do not want to let sin go or repent from sin and you block out anything that shows your sin, you are blind to sin and will stumble and fall and go right back to iniquity.
Again, you sell God short. You don't believe that he will be faithful to finish what he started. You don't believe that he forgives our sin and credits/imputes his own righteousness to us. You don't believe that God is powerful enough to keep us, but instead that we can so easily slip out of his grip.

Why is the focus of your posts sin? Why not make the focus Jesus and the fact that he has already overcome the world and that all who trust in him for salvation already have overwhelming victory in Him?
 
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freeindeed2

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Why is that an issue, well sin or iniquity is what will cause Christ to say "23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Notice that these He says that he NEVER knew them. They never had the Holy Spirit living in them. They tried to do good works and keep the law as a means of being justified or 'attaining' salvation, but they have not the righteousness of Christ. They did not rely on Jesus for their salvation, but instead insisted that they do it themselves (even part of it).

They were not his sheep and they didn't know his voice. And God did not know them because he did not live in them.
 
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reddogs

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That is why I am telling you to test the spirit you are following and if they do not follow what is given us in God's word which includes His divine definition of sin, then it is not of God. It wasnt Moses that put the words on the stone, it was God.

John 6:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
 
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TamiinKS

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I've been reading quite a few threads on various boards where one kind soul is only concerned with others' salvation. They just want to make sure you're following the "right" gospel.

But "right" usually means "my" gospel.

I agree. There seems to be an epidemic of soft, sensual, toothless gospels out there in America today. So few folks seem to understand that we are called to be holy because He (God) is holy. But there is grace for the one who is on that path, being perfected bit by bit every day.

If God intended us to be perfect from the moment of salvation, he should have just taken us up into heaven at that moment. Instead, He wants us to work out our salvation, with fear and trembling. He wants us to grow into His likeness, that He (Jesus) might be the firstborn of many brethren.
 
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freeindeed2

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That is why I am telling you to test the spirit you are following and if they do not follow what is given us in God's word which includes His divine definition of sin, then it is not of God. It wasnt Moses that put the words on the stone, it was God.

John 6:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
Jesus is the truth!
Jesus is the bread of life!

The focus of your posts is the law, not Jesus. The letters engraved on stone/old covenant/10 commandments are called the ministration of death. Jesus is the life! Maybe you should be testing the 'spirit' that keeps taking you back to that which will only condemn you.
 
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Eila

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If God intended us to be perfect from the moment of salvation, he should have just taken us up into heaven at that moment. Instead, He wants us to work out our salvation, with fear and trembling. He wants us to grow into His likeness, that He (Jesus) might be the firstborn of many brethren.

Hebrews 10 "14For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy."

We do need to work out or exercise this great salvation. Our working out or exercising this salvation is simply acting like who He already made us to be. We should become mature. As we walk with the Holy Spirit as our Guide we become more like Him.

Our purpose on earth is not to get to the state of perfection. He already perfected us. Our purpose is to fulfill the ministry of reconciliation that He has given to all Christians.

2 Corinthians 5 says "17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
 
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Adventtruth

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Shorter initial posts would make it much easier to respond.

I've tried to read redds stuff but I get sleepy. don't know how you do it. Just toooo looong for me.

AT:sleep:
 
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freeindeed2

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I've tried to read redds stuff but I get sleepy. don't know how you do it. Just toooo looong for me.

AT:sleep:
They are too long, and they're one big cyclonic spin zone, which makes it more difficult to respond to, probably by design. I make my feeble efforts, but it's too volumous to do with each one. He likes to bombard a thread with many lengthly 'posts' or 'cut-n-pastes'.
 
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freeindeed2

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John 6:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
Not sure what you're trying to say here, but, what or who was the 'true bread' from heaven?
 
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