True Christians

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 20, 2011

At the end I have to take your word, isn't that wonderful?

SithDoughnut · Mar 20, 2011

Bushmaster78FS said:
At the end I have to take your word, isn't that wonderful?

Welcome to the world of relativism.

Eudaimonist · Mar 21, 2011

Bushmaster78FS said:
No Mark, Hitler was good for himself

Was he? He most likely put a bullet through his brain. How good is that?

He lived a greatly and intentionally destructive life. How good is that?

I find very little good in Hitler's life. If you think he was good for himself, please tell me what those goods are and how they benefitted him.

and others around him thought he was...

So? At one time most people thought the Earth was flat. People can be mistaken.

Your good and my good are not the same.

It's true that your good and mine are not the same, e.g., we may be best suited to different professions. The profession that is good for me might not be good for you, and vice versa.

This doesn't mean that Hitler's good was being a dictator. His good may have been to be a painter.

eudaimonia,

Mark

HumbleSiPilot77 · Mar 21, 2011

Eudaimonist said:
Was he? He most likely put a bullet through his brain. How good is that?

He lived a greatly and intentionally destructive life. How good is that?

I find very little good in Hitler's life. If you think he was good for himself, please tell me what those goods are and how they benefitted him.

Sorry that doesn't really explain how good or bad he was from your perspective, what I think is not relevant either, those are isolated examples from his life and his legacy certainly still lives and there is a bunch people who think he was good. Again, who determined that he was good?

So? At one time most people thought the Earth was flat. People can be mistaken.

Goes both ways, we are still not sure.

It's true that your good and mine are not the same, e.g., we may be best suited to different professions. The profession that is good for me might not be good for you, and vice versa.

But why do we have to have a identifier for the "good" ?

This doesn't mean that Hitler's good was being a dictator. His good may have been to be a painter.

I am sure there are those who think he was a good leader, we are at an impasse. And about to hijack the thread. My position is that God defines good and we strive to achieve it.

Justsomedude · Mar 21, 2011

Bushmaster78FS said:
And about to hijack the thread.

I think this thread was off course by the second post. I have noticed that very few people have even addressed the central idea of the OP.

SithDoughnut · Mar 22, 2011

Justsomedude said:
I think this thread was off course by the second post. I have noticed that very few people have even addressed the central idea of the OP.

That's because there's nothing to address; I'm pretty sure we all agree.

Montalban · Mar 22, 2011

Zatara Kriszto said:
Titles mean nothing. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, Muslim, Jew or other... That doesn't mean they are a good person. A good person can be seen by their good deeds and you don't have to be under a certain title or religion to do that.

Titles are words. Words have meaning. If they didn't then we'd not be able to have this conversation

Eudaimonist · Mar 22, 2011

Montalban said:
Titles are words. Words have meaning. If they didn't then we'd not be able to have this conversation

Words don't have intrinsic meaning, but the meanings that we assign to them.

And people may label themselves incorrectly, so calling oneself a Christian, for example, doesn't mean that one is a good person, even if Christian is defined in part as "a good person". And being a good person wouldn't necessarily make one a Christian.

Incidentally, "titles mean nothing" was most likely intended to mean "titles prove nothing".

eudaimonia,

Mark

Jane_the_Bane · Mar 22, 2011

Once you try to apply absolutist "all or nothing/black or white" standards to relativistic concepts, you end up distorting them to the point where they become virtually unrecognizable.

Just because moralities are interpersonal, subjective cultural constructs doesn't mean that you cannot distinguish between categories like "disastrously misguided" and "mostly benevolent".

It doesn't take much to distinguish atrocities. All it takes is a basic sense of humanity, undiminished by the kind of rationalizations and justifications that allow otherwise decept people to commit the most horrid acts.

Jane_the_Bane · Mar 22, 2011

By the way: even in the first century, Christianity was hardly a unified, monolithic movement - and first conflicts over who got to claim the title of TRUE Christianity are even recorded in the Bible.

Take, for example, the conflict between the "Judaizers" of the Jerusalem Church and its Three Pillars and Paul's faction. Even if the conflict was as smoothly resolved as the author of Luke-Acts wants us to believe (in sharp contrast to some passages within the Pauline epistles that suggest an ongoing rivalry between the two sects), it's still a doctrinal split.

By the time one faction gained undisputed ascendancy, the face of Christianity had already changed significantly - in spite of what the Orthodox like to believe.

Justsomedude · Mar 22, 2011

Jane_the_Bane said:
By the way: even in the first century, Christianity was hardly a unified, monolithic movement - and first conflicts over who got to claim the title of TRUE Christianity are even recorded in the Bible.

Take, for example, the conflict between the "Judaizers" of the Jerusalem Church and its Three Pillars and Paul's faction. Even if the conflict was as smoothly resolved as the author of Luke-Acts wants us to believe (in sharp contrast to some passages within the Pauline epistles that suggest an ongoing rivalry between the two sects), it's still a doctrinal split.

By the time one faction gained undisputed ascendancy, the face of Christianity had already changed significantly - in spite of what the Orthodox like to believe.

After reading this, I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is not a religion in it's own right but a group or class or religions. Baptists, Catholicism, Mormonism and Anglicanism are all religions that fall under the Christian class of relgions.

b&wpac7 · Mar 22, 2011

If your icon is accurate, why do you worry so much about this?

Justsomedude · Mar 22, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
If your icon is accurate, why do you worry so much about this?

My faith icon is not entirely correct. More accurately, I'm a Noahide but there was no faith icon for that.

I don't think worry is the right word. In the end, I really don't care very much. Talking about this helps me to organize my thoughts about a few things, some of which have little or nothing to do with Christianity.

I grew up as an evangical, charismatic Christian and most of my extended family is the same and I would like to see them adopt a more sane religious practice and working out my ideas helps me to find a way to talk to them and influence them in that direction.

In a couple of days, if not sooner, I'll probably loose interest in this subject.

b&wpac7 · Mar 22, 2011

Justsomedude said:
My faith icon is not entirely correct. More accurately, I'm a Noahide but there was no faith icon for that.

I don't think worry is the right word. In the end, I really don't care very much. Talking about this helps me to organize my thoughts about a few things, some of which have little or nothing to do with Christianity.

I grew up as an evangical, charismatic Christian and most of my extended family is the same and I would like to see them adopt a more sane religious practice and working out my ideas helps me to find a way to talk to them and influence them in that direction.

Ah, family ties. I can certainly relate to that.

What do you view within Christianity that is no a sane practice?

Justsomedude · Mar 22, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
Ah, family ties. I can certainly relate to that.

What do you view within Christianity that is no a sane practice?

Precisely, Christians turning on each other and disowning each other left and right.

Community is the foundation of organized religion and this type of behavior is anathema to that.

Also, there is just great deal of superstition and what I consider to be witchcraft practiced within their ranks. My parents church teaches that if you give to the church, G-d will give to you like it's magic and giving money is just casting the spell or something like that.

All that church has ever done is take and given nothing back to me (back when I was attending) or my parents.

Some of my siblings have abandoned religious practice all together is a result of the influence of that church

BTW, I plan to convert. I just haven't made up my mind yet whether I want to do modern orthodoxy or reconstructionism.

Justsomedude · Mar 22, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
If your icon is accurate, why do you worry so much about this?

Also, I still have some lingering negative feelings toward Christianity and posting on here and discussing it helps me to work past those feelings and develop a more positive view toward my fellow theists.

b&wpac7 · Mar 22, 2011

Justsomedude said:
Also, I still have some lingering negative feelings toward Christianity and posting on here and discussing it helps me to work past those feelings and develop a more positive view toward my fellow theists.

Sounds very familiar. I left Christianity when I was about 18 with very bitter feelings. It really isn't good to let that bitterness stay within you. It's hard because, if you are like me at the time, you feel somewhat betrayed by what has happened. Betrayed by the church, by family, perhaps even by Jesus. Growing up Christian, it's hard not to have a lot invested in Jesus, and if that faith cracks and crumbles it's like that investment is gone. There's doubt too. What if you were wrong? Did Jesus turn his back on you?

There's a lot of painful emotions wrapped all up in that.

Remember that you have doubts with the religion, not all the people. I too had heard that if you give to the church you will get more back. But it could just be a mistaken pastor, or one that meant you would get back more spiritually or whatever.

If I'm way off, I'm sorry. Just thought I'd share.

JJWhite · Mar 22, 2011

I'm not Christian, but regardless of what that church did with y'all's money, I pray and hope that you WILL get back what you gave in God's way many times over... sooner or later. It was your intention that matters.

Ishraqiyun · Mar 22, 2011

There is a sense in which everyone who calls themselves Christian is "Christian" but does the person actually live in a Christ like manner? If they don't then I can understand trying to say that such a person and their actions shouldn't be held up as an example of what is truly Christian. That's usually when people try to distance a person from their faith. When they do something crazy and then they are being held up as an example of what the faith is all about.

b&wpac7 · Mar 22, 2011

JJWhite said:
I pray and hope that you WILL get back what you gave in God's way many times over.

The difference is that, if it's like what I was told, it was like a magic charm. You'd get 10x back whatever you gave. In money or at least monetary value.

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