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Lord Emsworth

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I think you could even strike out P1, P2 and P3. Or render P2 and P3 them as not referring to evolution, but to chance. For instance:

P1. Science has proved that chance cannot produce Man.

P2. Either chance or God produced Man.

P3. God is invisible, and cannot be seen except through his works, one of which is Man.

P4. Man exists.​


Which would mean that whatever you, or me, see to be behind Man - ultimately behind man - is God. Tough luck with that one, as it may easily not satisfy people's expectations to what (a) God is.

In a sense, this is *ok*. In a different sense, it is simply powerless.
 
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No, the Bible sections are important to Greg. They form the basis of P2 and P3 in the above example, he harps on them a great deal.
 
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BrianOnEarth

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In this list P2 is erroneous because the third option is missing: evolution by natural selection, which science has proved to be correct. If my jargon is correct, the step between monomers and polymers hasn't been resolved yet but everything else is either proven or beyond reasonable doubt.
 
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In this list P2 is erroneous because the third option is missing: evolution by natural selection.

Greg insists that evolution by means of natural selection IS chance. The fact that he doesn't understand what the theory actually says makes this harder. The funniest thing is he keeps using "stochastic" as a synonym of "chance".
 
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BrianOnEarth

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Greg insists that evolution by means of natural selection IS chance. The fact that he doesn't understand what the theory actually says makes this harder. The funniest thing is he keeps using "stochastic" as a synonym of "chance".
I suspect you are right. Well it is ok for Greg to not understand the process. He needs to go and read up on it then we can have a more useful dialogue.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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No, it is not missing. On one hand evolution by natural selection could be errouneously defined to be chance. But there is also the other hand, with evolution simply as an intermediate step, or even ... . I leave that as your homework.
 
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Interesting points, Brian and your Lordship. Did you bring the pig?

Anyway, on to draft #2.

Here's my first draft of what Greg is claiming. I will refine it.

P1. The Bible is a true and accurate document.

P2. Science has proved that evolution cannot produce Man.

P3. Either evolution or God produced Man.

P4. God is invisible, and cannot be seen except through his works, one of which is Man.

P5. Man exists.

C1. Therefore God must exist.


P1 is established by several lines of inference: fulfilled prophecy, accurate description of history, internal coherency (exegesis).

P2 is established by the research into intelligent design. Man possesses a property - complex specified information - that cannot be generated by processes involving random chance.

P3 is simply an analytical dichotomy; either naturalism or supernaturalism.

P4 is a secondary consequent of P1, based on Romans 1:20.

P5 is established by simple observation.

C1 follows logically.

Interestingly enough, P1, P2, AND P3 are all easily assailable. I will deal with that in a post or two. I will also deal with a better mapping of the remarkably poor "radio" analogy that Greg is fond of.
 
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Greg1234

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Again,


1 Varied venues mean varied conditions which dictate varied modes of inquiry and representation.

2 The physical is the venue.

3 Through text we learn the nature of God and the physical in relation to the nature of God

4 A venue as "Physical" dictates what should be sought and how it should be sought

5 Utilizing the senses amenable to physical law, God is known through its physical representation

6 Man is the physical evidence for God in the physical.

- Man existing as a reflection through God dictates certain characteristics

- Man existing as a refection through God dictates certain phenomena

- One, and the most materially derived, is intelligent design.


"5" note: The image of man is referred to as God. God and man are one. Material man is a physical representation of his image. The man, as an entity, amenable to physical law. Through Man, God's creation, we know God.


"P5." Man exists as a physical reflection of God. (1-5)

"C1." Therefore man as a reflection of God (what you call the existence of God) is determined through the nature of man including phenomena dictated by such.
 
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God has genitals? You really just said that?

Keep it clean, please - there are women and children present.

And I'll just briefly note that you're now changing your argument. It's still wrong.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Thank you for the translation into English. Then I disagree with P1, P2, and P3. I'll allow P4 because it is merely a stipulation on the sort of God he is trying to prove, although it is a weak premise since I don't grant P1.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Greg1234

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God has genitals? You really just said that?

Keep it clean, please - there are women and children present.

And I'll just briefly note that you're now changing your argument. It's still wrong.
There was no change. There was only a repeat of that same correction. A correction needed so the urge evoked in the ambiguity advocate subsides before a general repeat of argumentation.

Analysis and procedure based on the nature of reality and the laws governing its interaction in varied modes, reinstated.
 
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Thank you for the translation into English. Then I disagree with P1, P2, and P3. I'll allow P4 because it is merely a stipulation on the sort of God he is trying to prove, although it is a weak premise since I don't grant P1.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes, P1, 2, and 3 are his weak points. I'd even argue that P4 is questionable.
 
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Greg1234

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Yes, P1, 2, and 3 are his weak points. I'd even argue that P4 is questionable.
They are the points of contention which define your position. Not "weak points". Conveniently enough, this was an earlier point in this thread. That the atheist has beliefs. And the beliefs regarding P1 P2 and P3 are well known. Whether you believe that they are weak or not is not the issue at hand.

In fact, your belief regarding them were acknowledged and points 1-6 along with further clarification actually began with P4. Going back to the analogy, we have radio waves and voices on a radio. The nature of radio waves given through appropriate text, experimentation, deduction, application of that data, and the analysis of phenomena, which shows why the radio waves cannot be seen, conditions which render radio waves imperceptible, what is needed to capture and utilize radio waves, and why the voice on the radio is what constitutes as evidence for radio waves, are what the points given address.

The way in which you addressed it was P4 and P5. Again everything was stripped. This of course left the door open for its regard as a "mere stipulation" or "ambiguity". A different form of presentation, but the same mechanism devised to invoke that same line of thinking.

"God is invisible and is seen through his works as man. Man exists". Or to make it clearer what you're trying to do with your "helpful" syllogisms, radio waves are imperceptible and can be heard through voices on the radio. Voices on the radio exist (therefore radio waves must exist). If you feel like there is something missing is because there is. You've scrubbed clean all determinants and methods of inquiry along with references to text on the nature of radio waves and determinants and conditions met linking radio waves to voices on the radio.

When you are ready to actually see how we, at a point of isolation, determine that a voice on the radio is coming from radio waves, apply it. Or you may just see the methods of inquiry and verification based on conditions (given multiple times) in conjunction with points 1-6.
 
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As usual, you are unable to communicate in any normal fashion. I'll try to scrape some sense out of that goo and see what comes up.
 
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Draft #3

P1. The Bible is a true and accurate document.

P1a. Science has indirectly deduced God from observation of the Universe.

P2. Science has proved that evolution cannot produce Man.

P3. Either evolution or God produced Man.

P4. God is invisible, and cannot be seen except through his works, one of which is Man.

P5. Man exists.

C1. Therefore God must exist.


P1 is established by several lines of inference: fulfilled prophecy, accurate description of history, internal coherency (exegesis).

P1a is established by various observations of the nature of the universe which Greg refuses to elucidate.

P2 is established by the research into intelligent design. Man possesses a property - complex specified information - that cannot be generated by processes involving random chance.

P3 is simply an analytical dichotomy; either naturalism or supernaturalism.

P4 is a secondary consequent of P1, based on Romans 1:20.

P5 is established by simple observation.

C1 follows logically.

P1, P1a, P2, and P3 are still all false. I will deal with that in a post or two. I will also deal with a better mapping of the remarkably poor "radio" analogy that Greg is fond of.
 
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Greg1234

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Again, P4 is given as points 1-6 within which P1 is recognized and its usage outlined in 3. P2 and P3 assessed correctly and its position more sequentially accurate as the dashes. Listed as one of many verifications of the conditions in Romans 1:20 (P1). P5 and C1 amended at the final due to an inaccurate attempt. Amendments to C1 is in conjunction with 6.
 
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3sigma

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What utterly incoherent nonsense. The chatbot code that generated this gibberish needs a serious amount of debugging.
 
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Upisoft

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I wonder how you can crucify invisible man(or god). No wonder they couldn't find him in his grave. But then he appeared to them. Damn. Logic fault.
 
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