Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
- Jan 1, 2003
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I'm atheist because when it comes to issues about god, santa and unicorns I simply don't give a crap. I have more important things in my life than worrying about pleasing some maniacal deity who will burn me in the fires of hell for all eternity because I didn't live my life like he wanted. I mean really, 10,000,000,000+ years of pain and torture for 60 or so (i'm a smoker) years of dissidence? God seems to have some anger management issues.
You have completely mangled a simple sentence "not in this case", beyond recognition.
Yep.
Yep. Not relevant to making the point at hand.
Read it again.
Good.
Lets recap. The atheist presents the argument that the non physical to man, would be seen through basic sensory means. Romans 1:20 was given. That God is being understood through that created. What is being understood through a creation by a creator in one aspect is intelligent design. This fulfills the analogy, that radio waves are seen through its manifestation as a voice on the radio for example.
Another person came into play, possibly Mr "Tiberius" explaining why Romans 1:20 is not applicable to him because one of his beliefs requires the perception that the bible authors were under the same conditions as the Harry Potter author. Of course, he has no objective evidence for that, but the proselytizing via atheistic doctrine was acknowledged as his belief. Further he was told that Romans 1:20 stands and the man is presented as the visible representation of the invisible.
A Mr "DontTreadonmike" attempted to replace the man with Leprechauns, Superman, etc which would all be intelligently designed, but is not needed as the man is sufficient. The intelligent design aspect finally on the table, the belief that one day science will find a naturalistic explanation for life was acknowledged as his belief.
With Mr "Eudaimonist" we played deaf and dumb for a moment. The initial presentation of man as the created seemingly escaped his grasp and he proceeded on a line of ambiguity. Conveniently disconnecting all passages which imply that intelligent design or creationism is science and pretending that the only thing ever said regarding the matter was "ambiguously" man is evidence for God. No tests, no analysis, no predictions = no science. Thats better. Through establishing that factor, he merely began presenting Darwinism as the little men, big men,and tape recorded men. He was told that that is his belief including all the "could be".
Mr "Lord Ernsworth" again began disconnecting Romans 1:20 from discussion simply by not acknowldgeing the intelligent design aspect of man then claiming that the informaton as the designer as information within the concept of God being discussed is not presented. We ended with him basically not believing that he can perceive himself.
You decided to take up the reigns of your predecessors through the negation of Romans 1:20 as presented and the intelligent design aspect of man on the table. How this was done is through the same mechanism Mr "Eudaimonist" uses. You basically stripped all scientific connotations in reference to the man, in line with the prevailing doctrine that intelligent design and Creationism are not science, then presented a syllogism where man is intelligently designed because "the bible says so". This of course is a reference to the both positions previously stated,being "unscientific", and the "literal interpretation" of scripture being the only point supporting Creationism.
You were then told that the science involved stands, and man is intelligently designed, for example, not just because "the bible says so". You then proceeded to tell me that's what I said, those were my words etc when my actual words included the scientific portion of the persistence.
You then asked, after all these exchanges, for the analogy to be mapped across the board. It was again done so using intelligent design. You mapped the radio with man and you were told "not in this case", shown the intelligent design aspect being discussed and told that it is mapped not with the radio, but with the voice on the radio. You took "not in this case" and proceeded on a desultory notion through disconnecting it with the rest of the passage in order to make it support the foundation for extraction.
You were told that "not in this case" was built upon, but you again proceeded even further into using it as a point through which you may establish a given point. The latest of your adventures in misunderland represented by the first quote in this post. But we're moving on anyways.
Having finally gotten you to see what as said in the beginning, that Romans 1:20 stands and man as the visual representation of the invisible can be chewed on via the intelligent design aspect, this is sufficient. I already know that you do not believe in Intelligent Design, and like the exchange with Mr "Eudaimonist" and his ltape recorded men, Mr "Lord Ernsworth" with his i can't see myself, Mr "Tiberius" with his Harry Potter comparisons, and Mr "DonttreadonMike" with the notorious "scientific attitude", your thoughts on intelligent design(should you choose to provide it) is your belief. I have no desire, in either case, including yours to proceed past a certain point. You asked and you were told no. You asked again and you were told no. This is another post saying no.
In conclusion, the allusion to your final syllogism suffices as a characterization of the exchanges presented before. No, its not merely the bible said so, and it is not "merely man exists therefore God exists". There are various tests conducted, predictions made, phenomena interpreted, the "manual" referenced. This is done through various aspects, but the man as being intelligently designed is one. For some reason, the aforementioned lines look familiar, but I can't remember where Ive seen it. Can't remember anything in fact. Complete amnesia. But there is the urge to say "here we go again".
EDIT: To note, and reaffirm, the compound position only requires the acknowledgment of your belief as in the previous cases. Without Darwinism, or any assertion, Romans 1:20 stands, so do other aspects of derivation. Tests done are on chance in the Intelligent Design vs non intelligent stochastic processes. Darwinism just happens to be in the cross fire and a refutation of such is natural, in tests conducted for intelligent design through systematic dismissals of the chance alternative.
Yup. You're making exactly the "argument" I thought you were making. And since it's neither new nor interesting and you are quite remarkably rude to boot, I'm not going to waste any more time on you. Unlike you, I'm fairly polite, so you may have the last word if you want it. I'll probably post a complete syllogism of your argument in a day or so.
(Emphasis mine)
Why?Will this syllogism clear up what this all is even about?
Don't do the same mistake as people translating(or reading in original) the Bible and then thinking they know the meaning...
<I have more important things in my life than worrying about pleasing some maniacal deity who will burn me in the fires of hell for all eternity because I didn't live my life like he wanted. I mean really, 10,000,000,000+ years of pain and torture for 60 or so (i'm a smoker) years of dissidence? God seems to have some anger management issues.
A dangerous boast.
Most Christians can't fathom how God could punish someone to the level of an eternal Hell. However, when you understand what is gained and the price that was paid to give you that opportunity, it becomes a little clearer.
For anyone who has experienced the new birth and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and the subsequent supernatural joy, peace, and love that is a gift, a not of yourself, all for the price of faith and obedience, it is a gift beyond compare. Also, from time to time great spiritual blessings, protection, and knowledge is imparted, and is just a fraction of the life a Christian has to look forward to. God said in His new covenant, that all believers would know Him from the greatest to the least. It is in seeking that we find Him. The whole experience will only compound and grow endlessly, while those who shun him, loving their own wicked deeds more, will experience the counterpart to those joys, which is great and endless torment. Nothing to be scoffed at for lack of understanding. If anything, an attitude where one is looking carefully would be far more wise.
People forsake their own mercy with their boasting and trivial attitudes. Every man should be a seeker. Each person who becomes a believer was at one time one estranged from the revelation of God. Each Christian had his day. I certainly don't criticize others who don't see, but I do encourage all to remain humble and open, since those who do find God are usually those who were in such a state as this.
You might think to yourself that if there was a supreme being, you'd want to know Him. God won't throw Himself at you, so being a seeker with a sensitive heart would seem like a good idea, wouldn't it?
You can't witness that someone has resurrected from the dead, unless you encounter them personally. That is what He said in His Word. That's what He's looking for. Millions have this testimony, so at least a consideration of this would be wise.
Much different than...
<I have more important things in my life than worrying about pleasing some maniacal deity who will burn me in the fires of hell for all eternity
Why?A dangerous boast.
So then...erm...let's just ignore that inconvenient detail.Most Christians can't fathom how God could punish someone to the level of an eternal Hell.
Well, the missing element here is what is the opportunity and price of not prostrating yourself to the abstract idea?However, when you understand what is gained and the price that was paid to give you that opportunity, it becomes a little clearer.
My experience so far has the people who find god to be the ones who are emotionally in need of finding god or some alternative. God and groupies are an emotional narcotic. This has to be true because there is no objective reason to at all.People forsake their own mercy with their boasting and trivial attitudes. Every man should be a seeker. Each person who becomes a believer was at one time one estranged from the revelation of God. Each Christian had his day. I certainly don't criticize others who don't see, but I do encourage all to remain humble and open, since those who do find God are usually those who were in such a state as this.
Not really. Because neurotically pinning your hopes and dreams and expending your love on an abstract concept seems like a waste to me. It also seems like an avoidance of responsibility. This is hell on earth.You might think to yourself that if there was a supreme being, you'd want to know Him. God won't throw Himself at you, so being a seeker with a sensitive heart would seem like a good idea, wouldn't it?
Which will never happen because no one ever lives to tell the tale.You can't witness that someone has resurrected from the dead, unless you encounter them personally.
The opposite of wise. Millions believe all sorts of stupidity. Millions voted for George W Bush. Accurate knowledge is not very well correlated to the volume of opinions one collects. Good grief. I mean, really.That is what He said in His Word. That's what He's looking for. Millions have this testimony, so at least a consideration of this would be wise.
Keep seeking until you get addicted. Brainwash yourself. That's the objective reality of it, right?So we have to keep seeking until we settle on beliefs that match theirs? Makes sense.
Misattribution errors. Paucity of knowledge about nature, human psychology and statistics. You are just apportioning things you cannot understand to supernatural causes.How can there be no God and everything just fell into place? Look at how precious little babies are, animals too. Where do you get your sense of humor? It's not random. Ever been in love? It's a natural love (different from God's), but as intense as it can be, it is all good, as they say. It takes amino acids to make protein, and protein to make amino acids. They have to have been created. Compassion, an appreciation for character, these are all traits we've been given. We're so far above the animals, it seems quite foolish to think that we're in any way related. Our little footstool here has just somehow become this self-sustaining environment above all the other planetary bodies. Ask a doctor who marvels as the human body and its complexity. Ask them when people who flatlined, with no brain waves make it back with a testimony of God.
No one wants to die, except the suicidal. Death is very scary. Death is very sad for surviving friends and relatives. However, why do you have the arrogance to suggest that a final end to a person renders their life as not mattering! If you weren't so wrapped up in your own security-blanket fantasy you would be more respectful of the dead and value their lives even more highly as you would appreciate how finite and precious they are.There are no accidents. It's all for a purpose. Those who see past the external, humble and seeking, will eventually find. It's a very serious matter. When you bury your friends, doesn't it hurt you to think that it is over for them, as though they didn't matter? They do matter, and you matter. We're here for one pass. I truly hope that you do find. There's no time for religious games.
Which is a convenience for the apologist. If an atheist prays for God to reveal himself, one of two things can happen:God is meeting people outside the church, wherever they are, when they really seek the truth. You have to be looking and open to hear it.
And who's fault is it if he isn't knocking loud enough? We're surrounded by doors, with different people telling us to open their door and only their door, and we're not even convinced that anyone's knocking. Once you convince us that someone's actually knocking on the door, maybe we'll take your claims more seriously. Till then...He's same as He was before. Your heart has to "hear" the knock before He enters in. If you think it's not real, that tells me you didn't hear the knock. Most likely, you didn't hear the preaching of the Word for conversion. He confirms the Word, not tradition.
Quite easily.How can there be no God and everything just fell into place?
That there are pleasent things in this world hardly proves God exists; he is not required for such things to occur. Indeed, if nice things like babies and Monty Python can only exist with God, then it follows that nasty things like famine and disease can only exist with God too.Look at how precious little babies are, animals too. Where do you get your sense of humor? It's not random. Ever been in love? It's a natural love (different from God's), but as intense as it can be, it is all good, as they say.
And yet, we are.It takes amino acids to make protein, and protein to make amino acids. They have to have been created. Compassion, an appreciation for character, these are all traits we've been given. We're so far above the animals, it seems quite foolish to think that we're in any way related.
Someone who has been declared brain-dead has risen from the the grave? Can you substantiate this claim?Our little footstool here has just somehow become this self-sustaining environment above all the other planetary bodies. Ask a doctor who marvels as the human body and its complexity. Ask them when people who flatlined, with no brain waves make it back with a testimony of God.
Then why does God leave us in a sea of religions, without any indication which one is true - or even if any is true? And why should it matter what religion we pick? Is God so petty that we not only have to believe he exists, but we have to believe in precisely the right way? Why should our eternal destiny depend on which country we were born in (because, y'know, you, Alive_Again, wouldn't have been a Christian were you born in a mud hut in the Amazon), rather than our moral worth? Why don't we all get a free ticket to Heaven?There are no accidents. It's all for a purpose. Those who see past the external, humble and seeking, will eventually find. It's a very serious matter. When you bury your friends, doesn't it hurt you to think that it is over for them, as though they didn't matter? They do matter, and you matter. We're here for one pass. I truly hope that you do find. There's no time for religious games.
All of them.<Misattribution errors. Paucity of knowledge about nature, human psychology and statistics. You are just apportioning things you cannot understand to supernatural causes.
Which of the above do you apply to these?
My limbic system.Look at how precious little babies are, animals too. Where do you get your sense of humor?
Yes.While it is "human nature" to love our young, look at how precious they are. It helps us to overcome their many faults, and we see their beauty.
Your attribution of unique characteristics and circumstances for planet Earth is due to statistical naivety.Statistical humor? That's a tough one. We do understand these things. These attributes show how we are created in God's image. We appreciate character, justice, fairness.
No. You are so belittling of human life that I am beside myself.Of course it matters to family and those affected by their lives. In reality though, after some time passes (generations), they are no longer relevant. If that was all it was for, then they hardly mattered. If however, they live forever, what they did carries on through eternity. It continues. It really had relevance and meaning.
The meaning is with those you relate to while alive and the things you create that outlast you. Like children. Nothing matters to anyone but people, like you and I.I do respect the dead, but if you mean so much to those here, and then you're gone for the eternal count. Where is the meaning?
You are asking the wrong question. The right question is why did it start at all and why did I get to be alive for a while? The normal state of matter is not to be conscious. When you die you simply become normal again. Sort of like when you are in dreamless sleep.Why does it end? Why does it have to end? It doesn't, and they are relevant because their deeds carry past this world. That is why they matter past the lifetimes of their families.
Thanks for telling me I matter. But to whom do I matter? To you? But you know nothing about me. Do I matter because you think I matter or do I matter because you think god matters and god says I matter?It's no fantasy. It's no security blanket, because we are accountable for what we do, which means, there are consequences to doing the wrong thing. I wouldn't waste my time entreating those who don't believe if I didn't think they mattered. Odds are good we'll never meet, and yet to me you do matter.
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