True And False Ecumenism

Franze · Aug 16, 2005

Mark, impressing story, the religious dialogue has a problem, it can end like indifferentism, and this invitation to buddhist monks was bad, very bad.

D'Ann · Aug 16, 2005

Wow Mark, that was an excellent story. It is sooo sad and scary that this particular Catholic priest was soooo open to a non-Christian faith to the point of rejecting other Catholics. That story is probably one of the most profound stories that I have ever read that explains "indifferentism" so well.

It's one thing to reach out to other Christian faiths in the name of ecumenism, but when Christian faiths overlook their own for a pagan faith... that's wrong. There should always be that line in the sand that Jesus drew. We must pray for these leaders who reject their own and yet have such great ecumenical skills towards others that are not even Christian. I don't understand this concept at all.

Pax,

Debbie

lismore · Aug 16, 2005

Colabomb said:
From context, I am not sure he meant to be insulting.

Hi colabomb

No I didnt mean to be insulting. If anyone took it as an insult them im sorry

All I was meaning is that:

A pagan believes and does different stuff from a catholic, therefore a catholic is not a pagan and a pagan is not a catholic.

To an extent there are also differences between 'catholics' and 'christians' but perhaps more common ground than the above example.

The terms are confusing but I dont know what else to call myself but Christian. Perhaps catholics would be best known as Roman Catholic Christians and then the likes of me as just plain Christian. I dont know

lismore · Aug 16, 2005

JeffreyLloyd said:
Catholc's are Christian.

And all Christian's should be Catholic.

Well I can agree with you on the first point friend

but can you explain the second? Dont understand

Is not someone who follows the same God, the same Jesus but perhaps has one or two different little ways of conducting a service, is such a person not a brother/ sister in the Lord?

If you were trapped on a desert island, would you not rather be trapped there with a 'Christian' or with someone else say a satanist?

Colabomb · Aug 16, 2005

lismore said:
Hi colabomb

No I didnt mean to be insulting. If anyone took it as an insult them im sorry

All I was meaning is that:

A pagan believes and does different stuff from a catholic, therefore a catholic is not a pagan and a pagan is not a catholic.

To an extent there are also differences between 'catholics' and 'christians' but perhaps more common ground than the above example.

The terms are confusing but I dont know what else to call myself but Christian. Perhaps catholics would be best known as Roman Catholic Christians and then the likes of me as just plain Christian. I dont know

I understand what you are trying to say.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone else did before they thought you were attacking them. It is a common thing for what we call "anti-Catholics" to imply that Roman Catholics are not Christians. They will often say "You are Catholic, but I am Christian".

I know you were not meaning to hurt, but I was not sure that everyone else would see that, as what you said is similar to someone who wanted to hurt would say.

lismore · Aug 16, 2005

Colabomb said:
I understand what you are trying to say.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone else did before they thought you were attacking them. It is a common thing for what we call "anti-Catholics" to imply that Roman Catholics are not Christians. They will often say "You are Catholic, but I am Christian".

I know you were not meaning to hurt, but I was not sure that everyone else would see that, as what you said is similar to someone who wanted to hurt would say.

Thanks colabomb

I think catholics are Christian and I surely dont want to hurt anyone. I think we are all on the same bus!

All the names are quite confusing, perhaps 'catholic christian' and 'christian' would be the best way?

Colabomb · Aug 16, 2005

lismore said:
Well I can agree with you on the first point friend

but can you explain the second? Dont understand

Roman Catholics believe that their church contains the fullness of the Truth. They believe that we non-Roman Catholics are Christians, but do not have the fullness of the Truth.

They call us "Separated Bretheren". Since they believe they have the full Truth, they want us to become Roman Catholic.

Benedicta00 · Aug 16, 2005

lismore said:
Hi friend

Thanks for your message.

Now Im treading very carefully because I dont wish to offend catholic doctrine or yourself. Im not exactly sure where catholic doctrine sits here so please give me as much grace as humanly possible and tell me if Im offending you.

There are some people who believe in Christian Unity but do not believe that it has to be done by coming under Papal Authority, although they do wish the Catholics well. I believe that gentleman was one of them.

I myself would mention the scripture below:

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I have agreed with a catholic lady in Jesus name and it was fine. For her healing in Jesus name. I think that there is a unity in this and that God honours a prayer such as this. If a protestant and a catholic come together and pray to our father in Jesus name then I think God will hear that prayer.

What do you think?

Once again please correct me if I have strayed over the line.

God Bless

Lismore

What do I think?

I think there are many good holy Protestants who love Christ and practice what they have been taught as truth as best as they know how, but it is Jesus desire for them (May they all be one) to come all the way home to the fullness of truth. Christ gave us one Church, not Churches and it is not about papal authority hat isnlt the difference- it is about truth, Protestants do not have the fullness of truth. They have error mixed in with truth- that is not unity, Christian unity can only be found when we are actually in union and that means to believe all that Christ taught us, not throwing out certain parts of his revelation we dislike. Only Catholicism has the absolute fullness of all revealed Christian truth and if you are a Christian you entitled to have the whole truth not just seeds of it.

Benedicta00 · Aug 16, 2005

Colabomb said:
Roman Catholics believe that their church contains the fullness of the Truth. They believe that we non-Roman Catholics are Christians, but do not have the fullness of the Truth.

They call us "Separated Bretheren". Since they believe they have the full Truth, they want us to become Roman Catholic.

Not Roman Catholics, just Catholics. The Catholic Church is universal- it's not Roman.

Colabomb · Aug 16, 2005

Shelb5 said:
Not Roman Catholics, just Catholics. The Catholic Church is universal- it's not Roman.

Without being argumenative (I will not discuss the matter further past this post) I believe myself to be Catholic.

I respect the fact that you disagree with me, but I will not deny my beliefs in order to suit your wishes.

I use the term Roman Catholic with respect. Even you could agree with this term as you believe that the Catholic Church is under the authority of Rome.

Benedicta00 · Aug 16, 2005

Colabomb said:
Without being argumenative (I will not discuss the matter further past this post) I believe myself to be Catholic.

I respect the fact that you disagree with me, but I will not deny my beliefs in order to suit your wishes.

I use the term Roman Catholic with respect. Even you could agree with this term as you believe that the Catholic Church is under the authority of Rome.

I can appreciate the political correctness but it just isnt the reality. Your icon says you are Lutheran, not Catholic.

I understand that all Christians, non Catholics and Protetsant are c catholic but there is only ONE Catholic Church, not many Catholic Churches and I really dont understand why so many do not realize/and or accept that the unity that make the Church of Christ the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the unity with the bishop of Rome. If you are not in union with the bishop of Rome you are not a Catholic although we are all c catholic.

The Catholic Church is one Church under the bishop of Rome anything else is not Catholic but catholic. Protestantism is not in union with the Catholic Church

Where there is Peter there is the Church and where there is the Church there is eternal life.

All Christians need to come home to the Catholic Church where there is unity as Christ prayed May they all be one. We can not be one when we reject the shepherd Jesus ordained to be his vicar that unites us and all that the Church teaches us under his Christ given authority. No one else BUT the pope has the authority to teach us the Christian faith and if you are not in union with that, you are not C Catholic even though you are indeed c catholic by baptism.

Dominus Fidelis · Aug 17, 2005

Colabomb said:
Without being argumenative (I will not discuss the matter further past this post) I believe myself to be Catholic.

I respect the fact that you disagree with me, but I will not deny my beliefs in order to suit your wishes.

I use the term Roman Catholic with respect. Even you could agree with this term as you believe that the Catholic Church is under the authority of Rome.

I believe I am an Alien From the Planet Oegsaedftjh and I will not change my title to suit you either.

No Swansong · Aug 17, 2005

Dominus Fidelis · Aug 17, 2005

jtbdad said:
Wow, what a well thought out, logical, and mature response. Not to mention it overflows with Christian charity.

I believe the point Colabomb was trying to make is that irregardless of what you call yourself, he is still of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You may disagree with him, but he is entirely correct in his contention that the term Catholic means universal, Whether it is written with a Capital or Lower case C.

Colabomb was not disrespectful to you or anyone else on the board and he did not deserve your mocking.

You will notice that nothing about my post debates Roman Catholic Doctrine as that would be inappropriate considering that although I am also of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church I am not Roman Catholic.

See, we may have to call Anglicans "Catholic" in their own forum, but you are in OBOB, and I don't have to pretend you are Catholic here. I know that offends you and you think I am being mean, but see, Catholic means something and you can't go around saying that you are Catholic here.

You can pretend to be from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I'll pretend I am an Alien From the Planet Oegsaedftjh. What's the problem here?

But since I am being so illogical and immature, I'll quote St Augustine on the subject. I'm sure you will respect a Catholic theologian.

"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Churchs] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:1517], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

No Swansong · Aug 17, 2005

Dominus Fidelis · Aug 17, 2005

jtbdad said:
No problem except that I am not pretending.

Neither am I! I really am an Alien, why don't you believe me?

St Augustine on the name Catholic...

"And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

You are wondering why I'm being "mean" about this, but again, this name means something and you can't just borrow it and expect us not to care. This is OBOB and I don't have to pretend in OBOB, ok?

Benedicta00 · Aug 17, 2005

jtbdad said:
Wow, what a well thought out, logical, and mature response. Not to mention it overflows with Christian charity.

I believe the point Colabomb was trying to make is that irregardless of what you call yourself, he is still of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You may disagree with him, but he is entirely correct in his contention that the term Catholic means universal, Whether it is written with a Capital or Lower case C.

Colabomb was not disrespectful to you or anyone else on the board and he did not deserve your mocking.

You will notice that nothing about my post debates Roman Catholic Doctrine as that would be inappropriate considering that although I am also of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church I am not Roman Catholic.

Like I said I appreciate what he thinks, but the reality is there is only ONE Catholic Church and it gets its unity from being in union with the pope.

Are Lutherans in union with the pope? Do they obey and submit to the Holy See? Do Lutherans accept and believe all that the Catholic Church purposes for our belief? No, they do not-

Lutherans are not Catholic, they are Protestant. Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church, he would no longer submit to the pope, in fact he waged war against the pope and the Catholic Church- he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. He stared his OWN Church and up until now I have never met, head or seen one Lutheran who thinks they are Catholic, little c catholic yes, but not C Catholic.

The fact is and always will be and what one thinks does not change it- it is a FACT that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is found under the authority of the bishop or Rome. If you reject him- you reject the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Bottom line.

No Swansong · Aug 17, 2005

NDIrish · Aug 17, 2005

Oh boy...

* ND bites his tongue and quietly leaves the thread *

Benedicta00 · Aug 17, 2005

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

You have to have the marks of being one holy catholic and apostolic in order to call yourself the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You can not omit one mark of the Church that the bible tells us the Church of Christ will have and still call yourself the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has always been Christs one true Church since 33 AD. It didnt pop up in the 16 century.

If anyone thinks that Christ allowed any one of the four marks given in scripture to be done away with in the 16 century then I sure would like to see some revelation from on high saying so.

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:2332). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Churchs official teachersthe pope and the bishops united with himhave never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:1213), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:2527, Rev. 19:78, CCC 823829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesnt mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:2123).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:1920, Rev. 5:910, CCC 830856)
Jesus Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:1920).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatiuss time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:1920, CCC 857865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Marys special role, and much more even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

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