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Troy
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
I have not generalized about women, or any other group. I made an observation based on your other posts that seem to indicate that men are all neanderthals dragging women around by their hair.
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feral
Dostoyevsky was right
Sorry, feel the need to revise my comments utterly in light of earlier posts.
As a woman, I enjoyed the movie. I guess I'm secure enough in being female not to need every film I watch to depict females in the most respectable ways. Would I have made Helen's choices? Doubtful. But as a film and as a book I think it fit it's purpose (entertainment, not morality) quite well. Violence aside, and it was much less violent then Kill Bill, I thought it would appeal to a wide range of people and I would recommend viewing it if you want something without a lot of swearing. My mother (a member of N.O.W.) enjoyed it as well, although she did frown on the scenes of Brad Pitt's bare torso.
To me, when I enter a movie theatre I am going to be entertained, not to be taught morality. The Iliad was very entertaining; morally it's not the best guide to say the least. But, I believe it served it's purpose. Obviously, women were not represented in a very positive fashion in the film, but that wasn't the point. You don't revise history or censor films to be PC...it's boring.
Ivy
(who recommends you watch HP #3, where you'll see a woman beat up a guy, I promise)
As a woman, I enjoyed the movie. I guess I'm secure enough in being female not to need every film I watch to depict females in the most respectable ways. Would I have made Helen's choices? Doubtful. But as a film and as a book I think it fit it's purpose (entertainment, not morality) quite well. Violence aside, and it was much less violent then Kill Bill, I thought it would appeal to a wide range of people and I would recommend viewing it if you want something without a lot of swearing. My mother (a member of N.O.W.) enjoyed it as well, although she did frown on the scenes of Brad Pitt's bare torso.
To me, when I enter a movie theatre I am going to be entertained, not to be taught morality. The Iliad was very entertaining; morally it's not the best guide to say the least. But, I believe it served it's purpose. Obviously, women were not represented in a very positive fashion in the film, but that wasn't the point. You don't revise history or censor films to be PC...it's boring.
Ivy
(who recommends you watch HP #3, where you'll see a woman beat up a guy, I promise)
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I think you're completely missing the point. No one is trying to make the Iliad or the movie PC (whatever "PC" means as it has ambigous sense) -- if by PC you mean scrubbing clean it of historical context in order to fit our enlightened sensibilities. That would be untrue and probably very uninteresting.
But the Iliad is really not history in the sense that those events truly happened. The fall of Troy is a matter of historical record but not much else. Homer and the sources he used may have probably used a lot of legend, stories of gods/godesses and battle stories to weave together the Iliad. So Helen is most likely not a real person and if she was, then we really don't know who she was or was like. What we have is a story created by men in a very patriarchal society. Analyzing this story from that perspective and acknowledging that men show their biases when they indict Helen for the whole disaster (and put little blame on Paris) is not "PC". It's just acknowledging reality. It's a fact that women's voices are virtually silent in ancient history, that is how their societies worked. But to say there is something wrong with even acknowleging this fact is ridiculous. Those women weren't that much different from us. They were daughters, sisters, wives who had the same aspirations we do, and very similar experiences. The feminist perspective is to just try to get a more authentic understanding of their experiences. I do not understand why so many people are threatened by this and necessarily assume that it means to hate men, to skew history, blah blah. It already says a lot even about our society that to even raise these questions threatens so many people, male and female.
Also, you say that you don't go to movies to learn morality. There is no such thing. Everything you hear and see presents one kind of morality or other, whether you recognize it or not. I would never watch a movie like Kill Bill _ I believe violence is wrong whether is done by men or women and that that kind of 'entertainment' desensitizes people to violence. In the Iliad at least, there is a point to the violence because that is most likely how wars were, and are.
But the Iliad is really not history in the sense that those events truly happened. The fall of Troy is a matter of historical record but not much else. Homer and the sources he used may have probably used a lot of legend, stories of gods/godesses and battle stories to weave together the Iliad. So Helen is most likely not a real person and if she was, then we really don't know who she was or was like. What we have is a story created by men in a very patriarchal society. Analyzing this story from that perspective and acknowledging that men show their biases when they indict Helen for the whole disaster (and put little blame on Paris) is not "PC". It's just acknowledging reality. It's a fact that women's voices are virtually silent in ancient history, that is how their societies worked. But to say there is something wrong with even acknowleging this fact is ridiculous. Those women weren't that much different from us. They were daughters, sisters, wives who had the same aspirations we do, and very similar experiences. The feminist perspective is to just try to get a more authentic understanding of their experiences. I do not understand why so many people are threatened by this and necessarily assume that it means to hate men, to skew history, blah blah. It already says a lot even about our society that to even raise these questions threatens so many people, male and female.
Also, you say that you don't go to movies to learn morality. There is no such thing. Everything you hear and see presents one kind of morality or other, whether you recognize it or not. I would never watch a movie like Kill Bill _ I believe violence is wrong whether is done by men or women and that that kind of 'entertainment' desensitizes people to violence. In the Iliad at least, there is a point to the violence because that is most likely how wars were, and are.
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Yes, the Iliad is a kind of "legendized" history.
We can't retroject our modern view of things on a piece of classical literature.
I think the Iliad proper's view of women is...interesting. On teh one hand you have a ten year war caused by a woman. The power of one woman led to a ten year slaughter. Yet is due to the desire to possess that woman. She is both subject and object. Perhaps Achilles and Agamemnon's tension, due again to the possession and dispossession of a woman, is a kind of foil of the Menelaus/Paris/Helen drama which is the prime mover of the war. Again, the woman is subject and object. But perhaps even here I am committing the same error I warn against.
The morality of the Iliad can be seen in the god's and goddess' interaction with humanity (when the deities are not being treacherous). An overarching theme in classical mythology is hubris/nemesis, the folly of exceeding your station. Such pride offends the gods and will not go unanswered.
We can't retroject our modern view of things on a piece of classical literature.
I think the Iliad proper's view of women is...interesting. On teh one hand you have a ten year war caused by a woman. The power of one woman led to a ten year slaughter. Yet is due to the desire to possess that woman. She is both subject and object. Perhaps Achilles and Agamemnon's tension, due again to the possession and dispossession of a woman, is a kind of foil of the Menelaus/Paris/Helen drama which is the prime mover of the war. Again, the woman is subject and object. But perhaps even here I am committing the same error I warn against.
The morality of the Iliad can be seen in the god's and goddess' interaction with humanity (when the deities are not being treacherous). An overarching theme in classical mythology is hubris/nemesis, the folly of exceeding your station. Such pride offends the gods and will not go unanswered.
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The war was not caused by a woman, it was caused by the men's sense of injured pride and theft of 'property'. Had Paris stolen Menelaus's god idols, or some precious object from his house, the same would have happened because it was the ultimate sin to do harm to your host or his property. In the Iliad it's clear that Agammemnon uses this injury to Menelaus to launch a war of greed for Troy, so the war is not ever really about Helen but it is the reason that is thrown around to obscure the real causes and aggrandize the characters - because a supposed war for 'love' seems far nobler and more dignified than the destructive barbarian butchery it was for loot, sex and fame.
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I quite liked the movie. I won't claim to have read the Iliad so I just enjoyed the pure Hollywood theatrics. Even with it's three hour length I never felt that 'When will this movie end?!' feeling. Coincidentaly, my movie-going companions and I actually commented that Troy was a city that seemed to cherish, respect and love it's women.
And thanks for the entertainment in all these posts!
And thanks for the entertainment in all these posts!
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princess_ballet
Senior Veteran
Well I liked the movie. I thought it was very good.
It had all the right elements. And for whoever said that it was to violent obviously did not understand how that culture was. They were very brutal. Perhaps more so than they were in the movie.
Helen was beautiful. Hector's wife and child were great.
The acting was great.
The set/costumes were great.
My only complaint was the camera tricks. They sucked. The camera seemed to not be able to focus at times. And halfway through the movie it seemed like the movie the color changed.
But overall it was very very good.
Better than LOTR? Not quite, but it was good.
And I must add that I loved the fact that they knew that they wanted to be memorable warriors. They knew that they would go down in history and within that they would be immortal. It was a very interesting take on that. It makes you think.
And the gods envy us? Because we have very precious moments because any moment could be our last? Very nice touch.
It had all the right elements. And for whoever said that it was to violent obviously did not understand how that culture was. They were very brutal. Perhaps more so than they were in the movie.
Helen was beautiful. Hector's wife and child were great.
The acting was great.
The set/costumes were great.
My only complaint was the camera tricks. They sucked. The camera seemed to not be able to focus at times. And halfway through the movie it seemed like the movie the color changed.
But overall it was very very good.
Better than LOTR? Not quite, but it was good.
And I must add that I loved the fact that they knew that they wanted to be memorable warriors. They knew that they would go down in history and within that they would be immortal. It was a very interesting take on that. It makes you think.
And the gods envy us? Because we have very precious moments because any moment could be our last? Very nice touch.
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As a woman, I enjoyed the movie.
I didn't see much blame for Helen at all in the movie. Paris seemed to be the one being blamed, especially by Hector (like in the scene on the boat when Hector's chewing out Paris for bringing Helen with them). Of course things were brutal, that's what happened. War is brutal.
Anyway, I did enjoy the movie, but I really think Eric Bana (Hector) stole the movie I really enjoyed his character and was rooting for him throughout the movie.
I didn't see much blame for Helen at all in the movie. Paris seemed to be the one being blamed, especially by Hector (like in the scene on the boat when Hector's chewing out Paris for bringing Helen with them). Of course things were brutal, that's what happened. War is brutal.
Anyway, I did enjoy the movie, but I really think Eric Bana (Hector) stole the movie
I really enjoyed his character and was rooting for him throughout the movie.
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This first 20 minutes of the movie did not draw me in
, but as it got going I started to love it.
It focused on characters that I had never given that much thought to before. I love how the dug into Achilles personality and showed the "political" side of the war.
Overall I say it is a GREAT movie, though I could do without all the nude scenes.
, but as it got going I started to love it. It focused on characters that I had never given that much thought to before. I love how the dug into Achilles personality and showed the "political" side of the war. Overall I say it is a GREAT movie, though I could do without all the nude scenes.
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stonetoflesh
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- Apr 20, 2004
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Sitting through this movie caused sensations in me bordering on physical pain. Sure, it had its moments, but by and large I would consider it to be one of the worst movies I've seen in the last few years. The script was atrocious, the acting (with few exceptions) seemed mechanical and soulless, James Horner put forth his weakest score in years, and even the battles-- which I figured would be the redeeming factor-- were weak compared to many of this movie's contemporaries. All this was kind of a shock, considering the star power and the sheer amount of money thrown at the project. This movie will probably win a bunch of awards come Oscar-time, but as with Gladiator, Titanic, and other bland Hollywood "epics" most will be undeserved.
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mmmmmm......... hot men with breasts... or hot man breasts... no thanks. Not interested in staring at either sex.
Didn't need to see another war movie. LOTR was the pinnacle of massed sword warfare, and SPR, and Blackhawk Down are the pinnacles of modern war movies, IMO. I don't have high standards.
Didn't need to see another war movie. LOTR was the pinnacle of massed sword warfare, and SPR, and Blackhawk Down are the pinnacles of modern war movies, IMO. I don't have high standards.
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