Troubling Question

[Mytheodos]

Here's a great article i recently read on love,marriage and sexuality by Fr John Chryssavgis....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]LOVE, MARRIAGE, AND SEXUALITY[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Orthodox Theological Perspectives for a New Millennium[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1.- Love - Divine and Human. Preliminary remarks[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Love, marriage, and sexuality concern everyone, because love is a vocation for everyone. As Christians, we believe that the entire creation was made through love. The source and end of all things is love, because the source and end of all things is God, and "God is love" (1 John 4 : 8, 16). St. John Chrysostom describes the all-embracing love of the incarnate God in a homily on the Gospel of Matthew :[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I am a father for you [says Christ) and a brother, a bridegroom and a home, a nurse and a dressing, a root and a cornerstone. Whatever you want, I am for you. My desire is that you have no need whatsoever. I shall serve you ; for I came not to be served, but to serve. I am a friend and a member and a head, a brother and a sister and a mother. I am everything for you. Just stay in communion with me. I have been poor for you and a wanderer for you, on the cross and in the tomb for you."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even evil depends on love. According to the optimism of some Church Fathers, no one commits an act of evil unless they believe that something they love will result. Therefore, love is divine in origin and sacred in nature.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From a human perspective, there is no singular way of understanding the concept of love. It conveys a host of meanings and moods : from "making love" which may imply a loveless physical act, to the profound commitment of an elderly couple ; from selfish motives, to selfless giving ; from the softness of a child holding its parents' hands, to the intimacy of two friends holding hands.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Human beings are made to love and to look at one another. The experience of love is heaven and life ; the absence of love is hell and death. St. Macarius of Egypt believed that hell resembles being bound, back to back with another person, unable for all eternity to face that person. Love shatters the chains of loneliness ; it tears down the walls of selfishness. Love is a profound strength, a spiritual energy. We are never more powerful than when through love we are vulnerable. Love casts out fear ; it is stronger than death. To say to someone : "I love you!" is to make a metaphysical statement ; it is like saying : "You will never die !"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Appreciating this intensity of love, the Church Fathers dare to compare it with eros or passion. Dionysius the Areopagite describes God as a "manic lover" who is zealously protective of His creation. Love is so powerful, that one genuine expression of love reveals an openness that transfigures the whole world. To gaze into another person's eyes with love is to see the soul of the entire world, it is to see the very image of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This kind of love is a gift from God. Yet at the same tune, it requires cultivation and hard work. Love takes time and skill, responsibility and respect. it is an act of extending myself to nurture another, all the time. On the evening of life, we will be judged only on love. This love is more than mere feelings. It is decision and commitment. If you want to love, you must create it and not wait for your spouse to offer it. In love and marriage, God provides us with a wonderful opportunity of being reborn, of maturing. "This is indeed a great mystery" (Eph. 5 : 32). Life is the great mystery - to be lived, and lived in abundance. And if we work on love, if we cultivate love, if we let down our guard of mistrust, if we struggle to relate, then we shall gradually notice that the whole world changes and that the whole world is beautiful. In reality, of course, it is we who shall have changed ; it is we who see the same things with different eyes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here's the link for the rest...[/FONT]
http://www.orthodoxa.org/GB/orthodoxy/society/love.htm​

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[EspritLibre89]

Hey folks, I was talking online to my friend (just friends) about the topic of marriage and we got into an argument about the nature of love (the kind found in marriage). I told her that I wanted to eventually marry a virtuous Orthodox girl and have a marriage blessed by the Church. My belief is that if she loves God she would make a good wife and mother. I also admitted that there would have to be a romantic attraction between us. So basically a love that can be developed through love of God, children, and family well being.

Then things get really emotional and dramatic out of nowhere; she accused me of not believing in love. That this kind of love was for social welfare, and not really for love. I think what really set things off was when I said I didn't believe in soulmates. I used to, but I believe now that a man can love any woman; just that some are more difficult to love than others. My reasoning for this is from the high divorce rate, and the selfish way dating and sex are defined in our American culture.

She took offense to this, saying that true love only happens once in a lifetime, that any other love is merely regular attachment and getting used to each other. She described love as a feeling that will make your heart beat fast. I disagreed, saying that love is an action. It escalated from there and she ended up leaving the conversation before I could try to explain myself to her. Sadly many things were lost in translation online that would have been understood face-to-face.

But this got me to thinking, is love an action? or is it a feeling? I don't think love could be emotional in the sense of feeling, but possibly intuitive? A point she brought up was that people can't understand "true love" unless they have experienced it. It reminded me of Fr. Maximos in The Mountain of Silence saying that many who claim to be theologians only have ideas about God...while real Theologians have knowledge of God brought on by experience, or something like that. So is it vain to talk about the love of marriage when you haven't experienced it yet?

This made me question and examine my own beliefs about what I thought love was. I hope, after this heated argument, that my friend will forgive me if I offended her.

I was in pretty much the same situation with my guy friend a few weeks ago. Our conversation wasn't a heated argument, but the same issues were touched on. It ended with me saying well we can just disagree on this, but he responded with "what's wrong with my view?" I really didn't know what to say...such a hard topic, for me anyway.

 

[Happy Orthodox]

I think Westerners have become so weak-willed because of the "easy" life here, that we shy away from any kind of trouble. Our lives are full of stress in a Western way -- you've got bills, mortgage, car payments, credit cards, neighbors, smelly refrigerator, annyoing boss, etc. That is enough for us to not stand another stress that comes from marriage. In other cultures, marriage is an advantage, it is sought after, because together you can survive. In the West, you don't have to divide your strengths to take care of the cattle, a garden, fields of wheat, and a house, so why sacrifice for something that is not really vital for survival? Now days they marry so that they wouldn't be lonely. Not so that they could have a bowl of soup on the table. So, what can you expect from such an approach to marriage? If the marriage does not bring more benefits than costs (emotional or material), most of them break apart. But it's not right.

 

[Prawnik]

Happy Orthodox, as you know, the divorce rate in the Soviet Union was quite low, almost non-existent.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the divorce rate has skyrocketed - in only 15 years, some of the highest divorce rates in the world are found in former Soviet countries.

What do you think happened? Do you think it is related to the fall in childbirth in Russia, or do you think that the fall in childbirth rates is a statistical artifact caused by the spinoff of the Muslim Soviet Republics with their higher birthrates?

 

[rusmeister]

Happy Orthodox, as you know, the divorce rate in the Soviet Union was quite low, almost non-existent.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the divorce rate has skyrocketed - in only 15 years, some of the highest divorce rates in the world are found in former Soviet countries.

What do you think happened? Do you think it is related to the fall in childbirth in Russia, or do you think that the fall in childbirth rates is a statistical artifact caused by the spinoff of the Muslim Soviet Republics with their higher birthrates?

Although I generally find myself in agreement with you, this is one where I don't think I can.

Divorce has always been a problem - indeed, it became much more common after the fall of the Tsar and Orthodox Russia; the Bolsheviks discouraged church weddings and encouraged the civil services that weren't even really services - they even came to say 'raspisat'sya' (signing a paper) rather than 'get married'. I know of extensive treatment of the topic in literature and film.

It would be a little hasty to say that divorce was rare.

It could be argued that the divorce rate has gone up in recent years - I'd think it'd be hard to get good statistics, though.

As to the last point, I think it's both, but would give greater weight to a reduced birth rate. Having more than 2 kids is murderous here (I have 3 and we are considered 'mnogodetnoi sem'yoi' (a large family)!) - even 2 is considered plenty!

But among the Orthodox population 2-3 seems to be becoming an average now.

 

[Prawnik]

To the best of my knowledge and belief, regardless of what happened immediately after the fall of the tsarist regime, divorce was practically unknown in the late Soviet period, and was highly stigmatized.

Now, depending on the former Soviet republic you pick, divorce rates are among the highest in the world.

Don't confuse the confusion of the 1920's, in education, family policy, or anything else, with later Soviet ideology.

 

[OnTheWay]

I think western divorce is not nearly as complicated as a lot of people would like to believe it is. We live in a very egocentric society, as such it's fairly easy to see why people believe that when a marriage isn't "working out" for them they just end it. There certainly are social factors at work, getting divorced is basically the norm now so you don't have to worry about being an outcast. The feminist movement has created a legal environment in family courts that make divorce very appealing to women. The response of course has been pre-nup agreements that in many cases make divorce just as appealing to men. But in the end I think these things are just sympthoms of the real disease, which is basically that people are perhaps more lazy and self centered then they've been at any other time in history.

 

[gzt]

found an amusing little video via an interesting web-log. it's a man-on-the-street type thing, somebody just going around asking people what the purpose of marriage is, and they're just like, "umm....". link: http://cosmos-liturgy-sex.com/2006/11/16/uhhh-the-purpose-of-marriage/

if you have no idea what it's for, of course it's easy to get out of one or just not get one, you know?

 

[OnTheWay]

found an amusing little video via an interesting web-log. it's a man-on-the-street type thing, somebody just going around asking people what the purpose of marriage is, and they're just like, "umm....". link: http://cosmos-liturgy-sex.com/2006/11/16/uhhh-the-purpose-of-marriage/

if you have no idea what it's for, of course it's easy to get out of one or just not get one, you know?

The other thing I saw a lot of in high school was the notion that the reason people got married was so they could have sex and not go to hell. Obviously if you're getting married because of a biological urge you're probably not building a lasting marriage.