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Trouble believing in Scripture

CrystalDragon

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Every passage I quoted was Old Testament because that's whee most of the violence is. But hell is New Testament stuff. And even if those people were in the flesh, he didn't have to kill them or command them to kill. He could have easily changed their minds. Saying they're "what God was dealing with" implies that God had no power over how they were acting and couldn't stop them, while elsewhere in the Bible it says God controls absolutely everything.


He could have easily made it so their brains could have a personality that wouldn't rebel against him though.


Why though did he "need a people" specifically? That by default puts the Jews as "God's chosen people" and leaves the rest of the world as not chosen. If God created everyone, why divide them according to "race"? There's one interesting passage where the Most High divides his inheritance in separate people, and the Lord has Jacob as his chosen. Thing is, that passage seems almost as if Yahweh is a god in a heavenly council who had the inheritance of the Jewish people bestowed on by theMost High—probably a verse from when the Israelites were henotheistic (believing many gods exist but worshipping only one). Since the Bible was penned down by Israelites, can't the Israelites have just claimed they were chosen by God so they could be the most powerful and claim they had the power of God on their side?


Saying God had to bend his will and desire to theirs makes it seem as if God isn't all powerful—that may have fit into the henotheistic view of the early Israelites, but it doesn't fit into the "all powerful solo creator God" view that has been held at least since the time of the New Testament. And if those things were not God's will, it would make no sense for him to command them so brutally. Maybe say "Kill them if you wish, but you will face the consequences", showing that it's not God's will but he will let them face th consequences of their actions (though he could just change their minds). But instead God outright commands at points for those horrible things to happens, less an "I suppose you can since you're so blindingly insistent about it" and more "I order you to do those terrible things and you will listen because I am the Lord your God."

There seemed to be quite a few changes between the Old and New Testaments-for instance, in the OT, God was in control of both good and bad, and Satan was just like a prosecuting attorney toward God in Job (they had no concept of a devil in those days, the serpent was just a serpent, and "Lucifer" was a translation of "Morning Star" used for the arrogant king of Babylon who saw himself as better than anyone. In the New Testament, it was changed so God only does good things and anything bad or strange (in the case of, say, diseases) was caused by Satan.


They've been outlawed in Christian nations now, but Christians also had the crusades, and keep in mind slavery in the US was in part perpetuated because the Bible makes it seem like God approved of it. God didn't exactly come down i a bolt of light from the sky and say they were interpreting things wrong.


If they came to close to the prescence of God, then why were Moses (Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5, Exodus 33:11, Numbers 12:7-1, Deuteronomy 34:10, [URL='http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/33.html#23']Exodus 33:23)[/URL], Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel (Exodus 24:9-11), Abraham (Genesis 12:7, Genesis 17:1, Genesis 18:1, Exodus 6:3), Issac (Genesis 26:2, Genesis 26:24, Exodus 6:3), Jacob (Genesis 32:22-30 where he even wrestled with God, Genesis 35:9, Genesis 48:3, Exodus 6:3),
all the people of Israel, (Numbers 14:14, Deuteronomy 5:4, Ezekiel 20:35)

Samson's parents (Judges 13:22-24), Micaiah (1 Kings 22:19), Job (Job 42:5), David, (Psalm 63:2), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:1-2), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:27-28), Amos (Amos 7:7, [URL='http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/am/9.html#1']Amos 9:1)[/URL], and Habakkuk (Habakkuk 3:3-5) all able to see God?

And the image of "everyone will fear God" sounds like a far cry from "God is love". Then again, "God is love" was only said once and in the New Testament, while God directly said in the Old Testament he was jealous and such.

And why did a price have to be paid through Jesus's death, anyway?


You didn't offend me. Regarding the "perfect love casts out all fear" thin, then what about hell? Many people (even on here) obey God mainly because of a fear of hell. They make themselves sick over it. That's just about the farthest thing from love. As for "perfected obedience", what qualifies as perfect obedience? Does that mean that if God asks us to do something like he did in the Old Testament (as since he doesn't change he's certainly capable of that I'd assume) should we do it? If God asks us to do something that defies our moral compass, should we perfectly obey him because he's God?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hello and welcome to CF, Frances! Just so you know, I actually support the general perception you have at the present moment about the nature of the Inspiration of Scripture. So, you're not completely alone on this. The only thing I'd suggest is you may want to realize that there are Christians out there (few, but they're there) who value the Bible just as much as anyone else, but who take a more thoughtful and/or intellectual approach to explaining it.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Jane_Doe

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God is a loving Father. As a mother, I can relate a tiny tiny fraction to the love He feels for His children. I love my daughter SO much, and I want her always to be happy and make the choices that will sustain that happiness. I encourage her, love her, teach her. But I do not force her. Even if I had the power to program her like some robot to always make the right choices, I would not do so-- in fact the idea vehemently disgusts me. If I denied her the right to choose her path and forced my will on her... that's a choice a rapist makes, not a loving that a loving parent does. So instead I continue to teach her right, continue to encourage, desire nothing more than her happiness and eternal company.... but if she refuses it, I will not force, even though such rejection would cause me horrible pain.

Likewise it is with the Father: He loves us, teaches us, encourages us, and guides us. But He does not force our actions, even though each person that rejects us causes Him unimaginable pain. He still loves us enough to let us choose.
He could have easily made it so their brains could have a personality that wouldn't rebel against him though.
A child is not a designer robot.
 
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Hidden In Him

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@CrystalDragon:
My dear, you are wearing me out. I haven't even gotten to the rest of your list yet and you're already filling me up with another 45 minutes+ worth of work.

I'll do my best to get around to everything, but for now let me just deal with Hell:

Regarding the "perfect love casts out all fear" thing, then what about hell? Many people (even on here) obey God mainly because of a fear of hell. They make themselves sick over it. That's just about the farthest thing from love.

Yes, it is. It is supposed to be the beginning, and we are supposed to grow into closeness with Him and greater obedience, which will increasingly eliminate our fears.


Your first question is a good one, and one I wanted to add but was afraid the website might just double-post me again instead. Even in Heaven we will forever exist in a state of imperfection as created beings, capable of unintentionally offending others by accident, even if only rarely. But there is a growth process God expects us to participate in, and for those who do not fully grow into it in this life, they will be expected to in the next. Thankfully, our sins have all been washed away in the blood of the Lamb to open the door for that growth in this life and eternity.

If by the second question you are talking about something like Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac, I wouldn't expect him to ask that of you. Define specifically what you mean, and I'll see what I can do for a reply.
 
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Winken

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1 Corinthians 2:14-15 NASB.
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

How does one come to the Spiritual understanding of God's Word, no conflicts, no errors? ONLY in the Power of the Holy Spirit, the Most Gracious interpreter and applier. I (first person, singular, flesh) can spend months, years, my entire life questioning the Bible, and die during my questioning. Millions of folks have done just that. Or I can get out of the way as HE (Spiritually) answers it all!

In short, mind, mental, emotional searching and questioning goes nowhere.
The answer to everything Biblical is found in HIM.

As the Great Teacher, He enters into each Spiritually birthed Believer:

Romans 10:8-13.

He never departs:

Romans 8:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:24.

Believe it, receive it, rejoice in eternal security.

No more doubt, no more fear,
No more tears,
Never crying again,
And praises to the Great I AM,
We will live in the Light of the Risen Lamb.



 
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Hidden In Him

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Jane was correct. He didn't create automatons who would "love Him." He gave us freewill to choose whom we would love, and honors that freewill if we choose Satan over Him.

Why though did he "need a people" specifically? That by default puts the Jews as "God's chosen people" and leaves the rest of the world as not chosen.

The mystery of God was that He all along planned to offer salvation to the entire world through Christ (Colossians 1:25-27).

If God created everyone, why divide them according to "race"?

We became the different races by multiplying of our own freewill with whom we chose, and living in areas of the world as we chose. He didn't create us to be different. But yet our differences are part of what makes Him uniting us through the Holy Spirit into one body so beautiful. Though we are all different, we nevertheless all corporately put on the new man, through the love of God (Colossians 3:10-11).

Since the Bible was penned down by Israelites, can't the Israelites have just claimed they were chosen by God so they could be the most powerful and claim they had the power of God on their side?

My goodness, you sure have picked up some rather dark influences along the way. This reads like a combination of faithlessness and Luciferianism. I'm not sure which is more dominant in your thought. They did have the power of God on their side, as was proven out time and time again in their conquest of the holy land.

Saying God had to bend his will and desire to theirs makes it seem as if God isn't all powerful...

Once again, you don't appear to be listening. I'd be repeating myself here, so I'm gonna resign myself to the fact that you didn't receive what I was saying.


Read 1 Samuel 8:7-9 again. What part of that sounds like, "I order you to do those terrible things and you will listen because I am the Lord your God."


This paragraph contains more inaccuracies than I have time to deal with, so I deleted much of the quote to deal with just one: In Job, all the diseases that came upon him were originating from Satan, were they not? Again, the whole tenor of this paragraph smacks of Luciferianism, and comes dangerously close to equating God with evil. It also suggests either OT or NT theology or both were manipulated by men to suite their self-interests, relegating God Himself down to a powerless fiction.

They've been outlawed in Christian nations now, but Christians also had the crusades

Now it sounds as if you're parroting after the Muslims. Did the Crusaders truly represent Christ, according to my initial post? (Matthew 5:38-48).

Keep in mind slavery in the US was in part perpetuated because the Bible makes it seem like God approved of it. God didn't exactly come down in a bolt of light from the sky and say they were interpreting things wrong.

He speaks in a small still voice to those who have ears to hear. He speaks in parables, and explains Himself clearly only to those who have ears to hear. He turned to the Gentiles because the Jews refused to have ears to hear (I could give you quotes for all of it, but I'm getting tired). If He did not do such things, He would be forever arguing with those who had no ears for what He had to say... which makes Him wiser than me, it appears.


The difference between the inner court and the Holy of Holies, which I do not have time to explain.

And the image of "everyone will fear God" sounds like a far cry from "God is love".
You're repeating yourself.

Then again, "God is love" was only said once and in the New Testament, while God directly said in the Old Testament he was jealous and such.

You're again sounding Luciferian.

In summation:
Not that I want to sound condemning of you, CD, because I hold no animosity towards you over the views you hold, but you strike me as one who simply likes debating with others and isn't very open to receiving wisdom when it is given to you (again, entirely your right to do so). But given that that's the case, I'm not sure I have much more time for responding to your questions. I'm not a debater, and I find the entire practice repulsive. I'm a teacher, sent to those who have ears to hear.

Wishing you the best regardless.
 
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CrystalDragon

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I know a child is not a designer robot. It shouldn't be. And I know that people say "Oh, there's free will, God doesn't want robots", etc. But here's the issue I have.

A loving father would not torture his child. Hell is torture. "God wants us to make our own choices"? God knows everything and every choice was determined by him.

People are not forced into doing things, but here's the thing: God did shape each of our personalities. Some, by the personalities, are more selfish, others are selfless. Some are more inclined to religious thought while others are less likely to believe. That's not God forcing us to do anything, it's how he formed our personalities. He could have created us with personalities inclined toward doing what's consistent with how God wants things to go, and he wouldn't be forcing us in any way.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Views on this vary between different denominations. Here I'll answer from mine. If you want, I can then compare that to other groups/perspective.

As we both agree, a child is NOT a designer robot. God did NOT shape His children's personality like a designer robot. "Mike" is selfish because Mike chooses to be that way, not because God in any way forced him to be like that. Rather, God loves Mike. God offers Mike a million times over to help Mike grow and become selfless- but Mike has to take God up on it, God's not going to force.

In regards to Hell-- again, this varies by denomination. My church doesn't believe in eternal fire and brimstone or God torturing "Sally" at all. Rather, there is temporary pain that Sally brought on herself (God doesn't force it and pleaded with her against it), and then even the worse sinner gets to live in eternal happiness beyond your wildest imagination. This mind-boggling happiness is still nothing compared to the beyond-beyond-beyond-beyond-mind-blowing-happiencess one finds fully unifying themselves with Christ.
 
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CrystalDragon

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That denomination view is much kinder and more fair than the one I grew up hearing.
 
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Jane_Doe

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That denomination view is much kinder and more fair than the one I grew up hearing.
Yes. There are great differences between denominations. May I urge you to examine scripture/yourself/Spirit, and follow the path of Truth He leads you down.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Yes. There are great differences between denominations. May I urge you to examine scripture/yourself/Spirit, and follow the path of Truth He leads you down.


I swear you're one of the kinder Christians I've met here, you encourage me to follow whatever path Truth leads me down rather than the "Don't question anything, just believe!" view that I've seen so many try to enforce here.

I really appreciate your words. Thank you.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Not a problem

God wants us to learn, grow, trust, and love. He doesn't wants us to "just shut up and do what I say or else!"
 
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Winken

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He could have created us with personalities inclined toward doing what's consistent with how God wants things to go, and he wouldn't be forcing us in any way.

He did exactly that with the first humans. He put them in a perfect place, utterly at peace. The first humans rebelled. He then called Abraham to lead a group of people chosen by Him to the Promised Land, a perfect place, utterly at peace. They rebelled. He then called Moses to lead the chosen ones to the Promised Land. This time there were 613 rules and 1,000 commandments. In this way God showed them what THEY would have to do in order to live righteously. The people themselves were responsible for this heavy weight. On and on it went, with the people continuously rebelling, rather than accept the free Gift of God's Amazing Grace.

In the beginning there was none of this.

Now God sends Jesus to testify first to the Jews, and then through the Apostle Paul to all people, everywhere, to His Amazing Grace, no strings attached. Humankind was asked to believe it, receive it, and walk in it, Romans 10:8-13. Even today folks around the world, not a few counterfeit Christians, refuse to accept God's Amazing Grace. On and on they go, ranting and railing at their only Hope of graduating to new life in Jesus, and that for eternity.
 
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OnePeter315

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@Frances6098
I spent a lot of my adult life believing that the Bible was most likely put together by educated men of power who wove their politics into it. Slowly, as I started rereading it within the past year, God has opened my eyes to the truth and shown me how wrong my assumptions were. But, I think the important lesson here is READ THE BIBLE! Just... read it. Be open minded. It's OK to ask questions. The ones regarding slavery, rape, murder, etc are pretty common and have explainations that start by reading the books themselves and not relying on outside detractors to tell you what it says.

I want to recommend a great book for you called Cold Case Christianity by J.Walter Wallace. It was written by a self professed angry atheist and cold case homicide detective. In the book, he takes the same approach to solving a cold case into analyzing the New Testament and proves how accurate and trustworth the bible really is

@CrystalDragon
The issue of free will can be a tough one to decide on. I look at it like this. In various Disney movies and fairy tales, we see someone given a love potion which makes them fall in love with the giver of the potion. We know this love is forced. It's empty, meaningless. It doesn't count as love. God wants us to love Him. In order for that to have any meaning we have to have the choice NOT to love Him.

Also, don't be discouraged from raising your questions or concerns. As long as you are open to intelligent discussions. Any question is a valid one as long as you are trying to seek the truth and not standing your ground "just because"
 
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Frances6098

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@2PhiloVoid Hi there! Well, it's certainly nice to find a friend. I'm only at the very beginning of approaching the Bible as a seeker, rather than someone merely curious or looking up cultural references, and I am willing to change my mind. But at the moment at least, I truly struggle with this idea that it's word for word true. Is there any particular school of thought, websites, books or thinkers you'd recommend?


@OnePeter315 Thanks so much for the book recomendation! I'm a reader by nature, so when I'm lost I prefer to turn to books, and I'm rather lost right now. And thanks so much for your wise words - I am trying to read more of the Bible, but it is a rather long book! And for every few verses I read, I feel I have to think about them for ages. But I completely agree with you, reading scripture is the only way to connect with it.
 
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OnePeter315

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No problem. This is also something I have to keep in mind because my thirst for knowledge and truth is so strong and that is... it's not a race. At first I kinda freaked out and said "oh man! I need to know ALL of this to be saved" and that's just not the case. God knows what's in your heart. He knows how you will respond once you come across something. So, as long as you are moving towards Him, He will show you things as you need to see them. It's up to you to realize He is speaking to you. But just take it easy and enjoy the process

When it comes to digesting what it is you've read, I have three things that have aided me immensely. First is taking notes IN your Bible. This may seem sacrilegious at first, but it's not And it is invaluable. I actually use a digital Bible and it's FILLED with notes, thoughts, and questions. The second is a journal. Here I personally go old school and put pen to paper, but as questions come up or revelations are made, I journal them. Sometimes it's just a question. Sometimes it's pages and pages. Scripture is your primary measuring stick, and you need to become familiar with the basics of it for the third thing and that is a mentor of some kind. But you need to have a grasp of Scripture in order to know if what the mentor is telling you is in alignment with Scripture. In other words, don't just sit there and let someone tell you what to think. Read the Bible and then ask how to apply it to your life if you have questions or are struggling with something

I'd like to recommend another site to you and that's biblicaltraning.org. They offer free tracks from the fundamentals all the way to church leadership.

Good luck!
 
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