Trivia Thread

[Ann M]

 

[Paul S]

Formerly, there was no Mass for the First Sunday after Pentecost. Why, and what is there now?

 

[Ann M]

Trinity Sunday (C)

C115: The Feast of the Holy Trinity was not added to the church calendar until 1334. Does that mean that we did not believe in the Holy Trinity before then? What should our response be to this difficult dogma?

The belief in the mystery of the Holy Trinity commenced with the earliest Christian community. The Gospel of John today (John 16:12-15) reflects the lived experience of the community, since John's gospel was written towards the end of the first century. Liturgically, the origins of the Feast of the Holy Trinity can be traced back to the middle of the fourth century when a Preface of the Holy Trinity was composed for the mass. It arose as a response to the fourth century heresy of Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ and gave rise to the formulation or our Creed that we pray every Sunday.

The Father and the Son send forth their Holy Spirit to stand with us as we stand with one another. It is in our concrete acts that we see the fruits of the Spirit. In that sense, we become "signs of hope" for each other - - signs or "sacraments" of hope that both show the way and call forth the best in each other.


.......

Trinity Sunday

The first Sunday after Pentecost, instituted to honour the Most Holy Trinity. In the early Church no special Office or day was assigned for the Holy Trinity. When the Arian heresy was spreading the Fathers prepared an Office with canticles, responses, a Preface, and hymns, to be recited on Sundays. In the Sacramentary of St. Gregory the Great (P.L., LXXVIII, 116) there are prayers and the Preface of the Trinity. The Micrologies (P.L., CLI, 1020), written during the pontificate of Gregory VII (Nilles, II, 460), call the Sunday after Pentecost a Dominica vacans, with no special Office, but add that in some places they recited the Office of the Holy Trinity composed by Bishop Stephen or Liège (903-20) By other the Office was said on the Sunday before Advent. Alexander II (1061-1073), not III (Nilles, 1. c.), refused a petition for a special feast on the plea, that such a feast was not customary in the Roman Church which daily honoured the Holy Trinity by the Gloria, Patri, etc., but he did not forbid the celebration where it already existed. John XXII (1316-1334) ordered the feast for the entire Church on the first Sunday after Pentecost. A new Office had been made by the Franciscan John Peckham, Canon of Lyons, later Archbishop of Canterbury (d. 1292). The feast ranked as a double of the second class but was raised to the dignity of a primary of the first class, 24 July 1911, by Pius X (Acta Ap. Sedis, III, 351). The Greeks have no special feast. Since it was after the first great Pentecost that the doctrine of the Trinity was proclaimed to the world, the feast becomingly follows that of Pentecost.

 

[Paul S]

It is Trinity Sunday - but why was there no Mass for that Sunday before 1334?

 

[Ann M]

Because the Trinity is celebrated in daily Mass and there seemed to be no need to devote a special day to it?


(Sorry to be going slow at the moment, but having major troubles with the Rental Agency )

 

[Ann M]

Trinity Sunday became a festival in the Christian Year in the West in 1334, although it has existed unofficially as such in various parts of the West since the tenth century. Before 1334 this Sunday was the final day of the octave [8 day period] of Whitsun/Pentecost and one of the four appointed days for ordinations.

 

[BillH]

Because every mass was celebrated in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it was considered redundant by a number of Popes to have a special mass in honor of the Trinity.

 

[D'Ann]

Paul,

We need a new question... I think once again Ann and Bill hit the nail on the head... LOL You two are gooooooooooooooooood.

 

[Paul S]

Trinity Sunday became a festival in the Christian Year in the West in 1334, although it has existed unofficially as such in various parts of the West since the tenth century. Before 1334 this Sunday was the final day of the octave [8 day period] of Whitsun/Pentecost and one of the four appointed days for ordinations.

You're close, so I'll go ahead and tell you.

On the evening of Ember Saturday after Pentecost, the Mass of ordination was held, and it lasted so long that it continued past midnight and counted as Sunday's Mass.

Bill is also right about why there was no feast of the Trinity - it was seen as unneeded, since every Mass is to the Trinity. But many places were celebrating the feast anyway, so it was extended to the whole Church.

 

[Paul S]

Who is this?

He was born at Florence, of pious and respectable parents. From his early childhood, he gave evident promise of future sanctity. While yet a young man, he gave up an ample fortune which he inherited from an uncle, and went to Rome. Here he studied philosophy and sacred letters, and devoted himself entirely to Christ. So great was his abstinence, that he frequently passed three days without eating. He was intent upon watching and praying, and, frequently visiting the seven churches of Rome, he was in the habit of spending the night in the cemetery of Callistus, in the contemplation of heavenly things. Being ordained priest out of obedience, his one object was the salvation of souls. To the last day of his life assiduous in hearing confessions, he was the father in Christ of almost innumerable children. Wishing to nourish them with the daily hearing of God's word, with frequent sacraments, with constant prayer, and with other pious exercises, he founded the Congregation of the Oratory.

He was ever languishing with the love of God, by which he was wounded, and such was the ardour that glowed within his heart, that, as he could not keep it in its place, his breast was miraculously enlarged by the breaking and expansion of two of his ribs. Sometimes, when celebrating Mass, or in fervent prayer, he was seen to be raised up in the air and encircled with a bright light. He cared for the needy and the poor with an all-providing charity. He was deemed worthy to give alms to an Angel, in the guise of a beggar ; and once when carrying loaves to the poor during the night, he fell into a pit, and was in like manner rescued unhurt by an Angel. He was devoted to humility, and always shrank from honours ; and when even the highest ecclesiastical dignities were more than once offered to him, he very firmly refused them.

He was noted for the gift of prophecy, and was marvellously eminent in reading the thoughts of men's minds. Throughout his whole life he preserved his chastity unsullied. He had the power of distinguishing those who were chaste by a sweet odour, and the unchaste by a stench. He sometimes appeared to persons at a distance, and assisted them in moments of danger. He restored many who were sick, and at death's door, to health. He also restored a dead man to life. He was frequently favoured with apparitions of heavenly spirits and of the Virgin Mother of God, and saw the souls of many ascending, amid great brightness, into heaven. At length, in the year of salvation 1595, on the 25th day of May, on which day there fell the Feast of Corpus Christi, after having said Mass with extraordinary spiritual joy, and after the other functions were finished, just after midnight, which was the hour he had foretold, in his eightieth year he fell asleep in the Lord. Illustrious for his miracles, he was added to the number of the Saints by Gregory XV.

 

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

Never would have guessed without Google-ing it....but Wow, what an amzing life! Thanks or the post!

 

[Ann M]

Does that mean that you found out that it was St Philip Neri? You should have posted it! We're always looking for others to join in, and if you're really good you may even earn a few blessings along the way!!

 

[Paul S]

Good job, both of you.

I love the lives of the Saints.

 

[Ann M]

Whoops, nearly lost this thread.

Paul, do you have another teaser for us?

 

[Paul S]

Here's two somewhat related rubrics questions. (That'll give to time to find more Saints - I don't get to read about them in the Office this week, since it's the Octave of Corpus Christi).

We already know about Trinity Sunday. But is there a Mass for the First Sunday after Pentecost, and if so, when would it ever be said?

Second, do Sundays in Ordinary Time ever disappear, and if so, when?

 

[Paul S]

Here's another one.

What saint wrote the Mass and Office for Corpus Christi, and which of his hymns are used in the traditional liturgy? I'll give you a hint - there's four.

Can you name his fifth hymn on the same theme?

 

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

Does that mean that you found out that it was St Philip Neri? You should have posted it! We're always looking for others to join in, and if you're really good you may even earn a few blessings along the way!!

Sure did! What a remarkable Saint!
Thanks, I will definately stay....I could always use some blessings to spend inthe arcade
Now to get to the 3 next questions........

 

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

But is there a Mass for the First Sunday after Pentecost, and if so, when would it ever be said?

Probably way off, but let me take a stab at this one...
The Greek church has no feast on Trinity Sunday, so their Mass will be the First Sunday after Pentecost.

Am I far off the mark?

 

[Paul S]

Probably way off, but let me take a stab at this one...
The Greek church has no feast on Trinity Sunday, so their Mass will be the First Sunday after Pentecost.

Am I far off the mark?

I don't know about the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox calendars, so I don't know if you're right or wrong.

But, in any case, I was referring to the Latin rite.

 

[Ann M]

Interesting Trivia:-

1.It is well known, for instance, that our feast of the Holy Trinity began as a votive Mass to be said on any Sunday after Pentecost, when there was no feast.

2.John Beleth in the thirteenth century describes a series of votive Masses once said (fuit quoddam tempus) each day in the week: on Sunday, of the Holy Trinity; Monday, for charity; Tuesday, for wisdom; Wednesday, of the Holy Ghost; Thursday, of the Angels; Friday, of the Cross; Saturday, of the Blessed Virgin (Explic. div. offic., 51). This completely ignores the ecclesiastical year. But there was a general sentiment that, at least on the chief feasts, even private Masses should conform to the Office of the day.

3. This was a reply to a something that i found

"Thanks for posting. Happy Trinity Sunday and here's to 27 weeks of "Per Annum post Pentecosten"!!!

FYI... The second orations from the First Sunday after Pentecost for the Collect, Secret, and Postcommunion should not be there. The First Sunday after Pentecost is no longer commemorated on Trinity Sunday per the change of rules in 1960.

The next two weeks may likewise contain errors...the Octaves of Corpus Christi and the Sacred Heart were suppressed in 1955, and they may include commemorations for those Octaves in the next two Sunday's Masses, respectively. There shouldn't be. Also, the color of the next two Sundays should be Green and not White.

After these Sundays, it should be smooth sailing."