what do you guys think of this freewill junk? Animals have instinct, humans have volition.
big deal.
Charis
big deal.
Charis
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tripe
- Thread starter TreeOfLife
- Start date
This is not the right place for this discussion, Charis if I am understanding you correctly. Are you challenging the reformed view of soteriology?
You can find the Ask A Calvinist section, or go to General Theology if you desire to have a discussion. I would suggest a different tack, tho, than the one you've used above.
You can find the Ask A Calvinist section, or go to General Theology if you desire to have a discussion. I would suggest a different tack, tho, than the one you've used above.
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TreeOfLife said:
Charis, feel free to correct me if my impression is incorrect, I thought you were calling the reformed view of salvation tripe. Am I correct or incorrect?
I was offering a suggestion that if that is correct, perhaps you would get better discussion results if you use another tack.
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Rick Otto said:Tree has confused me too.
What is it you consider Tripe, Tree?
The idea of free will, or the idea there realy is none?
I'm not so sure there even is such a thing, but if there is, about the only thing I can see it used for is to turn from God not towards him.
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Rick Otto
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-and you're exactly right in our opinion.
The issue is addressed in the "T" of the "5points" commonly refferred to as "T.U.L.I.P."
Total Depravity
This refers to the condition of mankind after & due to, Adam's transgression, or "Original Sin" as some call it.
It is exTREMEly difficult for us humans to accept that were are completely & totaly worthless by spiritual standards. We're literaly "born dead in trespasses & sins" and "in bongage to sin". The term "innocent babe," is only relatively (not completely) true. That is why we need to be "born again".
When you finaly realize that, you are reLIEVED at the idea that you can be in bondage to Christ, - His will (not yours) be done. So the accusation of being "robots" is like water off a duck's back. It doesn't touch(affect) you. It doesn't stick. Those people are so enamored of their ability to make a decision, that they regard it as a REDEEMING quality. They claim autonomy (self-rule) is what makes them precious & desired of God.
God's glory is what God desires.
To think He can't & won't (didn't & doesn't) control what He creates is cognitive dissonance. The very act of creation is an act of control.
Responsibility is a word they misuse to falsely authenticate their supposed freedom and gauge their 'preciousness'. Their delusion is that because they have volition(will), they are independant of God's sovereign control, forgetting that God's jurisdiction knows no limits (omnipotence). They are so impressed with their uniqueness & volition, that they think God must be too.
They believe that God is not responsible for the existence of evil, or that would make him evil(see Isaiah 45:7). While that would be true in a limited sense, true of humans & their behavior, God is above our ways & ALL things work for the good of those who love Him (the perfecting of the saints). So when He creates evil, like Romans & crosses, He does it for a Very Good purpose.
Clear as mud?
The issue is addressed in the "T" of the "5points" commonly refferred to as "T.U.L.I.P."
Total Depravity
This refers to the condition of mankind after & due to, Adam's transgression, or "Original Sin" as some call it.
It is exTREMEly difficult for us humans to accept that were are completely & totaly worthless by spiritual standards. We're literaly "born dead in trespasses & sins" and "in bongage to sin". The term "innocent babe," is only relatively (not completely) true. That is why we need to be "born again".
When you finaly realize that, you are reLIEVED at the idea that you can be in bondage to Christ, - His will (not yours) be done. So the accusation of being "robots" is like water off a duck's back. It doesn't touch(affect) you. It doesn't stick. Those people are so enamored of their ability to make a decision, that they regard it as a REDEEMING quality. They claim autonomy (self-rule) is what makes them precious & desired of God.
God's glory is what God desires.
To think He can't & won't (didn't & doesn't) control what He creates is cognitive dissonance. The very act of creation is an act of control.
Responsibility is a word they misuse to falsely authenticate their supposed freedom and gauge their 'preciousness'. Their delusion is that because they have volition(will), they are independant of God's sovereign control, forgetting that God's jurisdiction knows no limits (omnipotence). They are so impressed with their uniqueness & volition, that they think God must be too.
They believe that God is not responsible for the existence of evil, or that would make him evil(see Isaiah 45:7). While that would be true in a limited sense, true of humans & their behavior, God is above our ways & ALL things work for the good of those who love Him (the perfecting of the saints). So when He creates evil, like Romans & crosses, He does it for a Very Good purpose.
Clear as mud?
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TreeOfLife said:
Thanks for the clarification, TOL. I was incorrect in how I was interpreting what you wrote!
I was reading this just last night:
Come, work repentance in my soul;
Represent sin to me in its odious colours that Imay hate it,
Melt my heart by the majesty and mercy of God;
Show me my ruined self and help there is in him;
Teach me to behold my Creator,
his ability to save,
his arms outstretched,
his heart big for me,
May I confide in his power nd love,
commit my soul to him without reserve,
bear his image, observe his laws,
pursue his service,
and he through time and eternity
a monument to the efficacy of his grace,
a trophy of his victory.
Make me willing to be saved in his way;
perceiving nothing in myself , but all is Jesus:
Help me not only to receive him but
to walk in him,
depend upon him,
commune with him,
be conformed to him,
follow him,
imperfect, but still pressing forward,
not complaining of labour, bu valuing rest,
not murmuring under trials, but thankful for my state.
Give me that faith which is the means of salvation,
and the principle and medium of all godliness;
May I be saved by grace through faith,
live by faith,
feel the joy of faith,
do the work of faith.
Perceiving nothing in myself, may I find in Christ
wisdom, righteousness, sanctification,
redemption.
from The Valley of Vision which is a collection of Puritan poetry
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I thank God that He chose me instead of leaving that choice in my hands. I know me. I most assuredly would have blown it!
Thank you Heavenly Father! Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!
Thank you Heavenly Father! Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!
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TreeOfLife said:I thank God that He chose me instead of leaving that choice in my hands. I know me. I most assuredly would have blown it!
Thank you Heavenly Father! Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!
ditto.
Thank you, Lord.
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JJB said:ditto.
Thank you, Lord.
First rule, God is cool.
Sorry, but my corrupted words, my corrupted language, even my corrupted thoughts are inadequete to convey the Love I have been given.
Yeah. God's pretty awesome.
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ClementofRome said:
Ususally my best prayers come down to just one word. Something along the lines of "Help!" or "groan!", but occasionally I can actually put a whole sentence together like this, "Thank You!".
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