Trinity

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

Tangible · Apr 13, 2017

Pagan said:
If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

I've heard a lot worse statements about the Trinity. I probably wouldn't go too deeply, and beware of analogies - they inevitably fall short of a true confession of the Trinity.

Ken Rank · Apr 13, 2017

Pagan said:
If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

Actually, for a pagan that was pretty good.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

In Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6, Moses preaches to Israel. I don't understand if the information in Deuteronomy represents one sermon, something like Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, or maybe it represents a collection of sermons.

In the sermon, Moses says that God has commanded that the Israelites , "... shall have no other gods ... ." Seems to me that means that even if the Moses practiced monotheism, some of the Israelists must have had an alternate opinion.

Later in the sermon Moses says, "The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which modern theologians take to mean that Moses believed that God is the only God.

That idea that "God is the only God," has become the first idea about the Trinity. Also, it adds another way to refer to God. Besides God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, now we have Lord.

Ken Rank · Apr 13, 2017

Pagan said:
In Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6, Moses preaches to Israel. I don't understand if the information in Deuteronomy represents one sermon, something like Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, or maybe it represents a collection of sermons.

In the sermon, Moses says that God has commanded that the Israelites , "... shall have no other gods ... ." Seems to me that means that even if the Moses practiced monotheism, some of the Israelists must have had an alternate opinion.

Later in the sermon Moses says, "The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which modern theologians take to mean that Moses believed that God is the only God.

That idea that "God is the only God," has become the first idea about the Trinity. Also, it adds another way to refer to God. Besides God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, now we have Lord.

They were coming out of Egypt where many gods were worshiped. They carried that practice with them making a golden young bull and calling it by God's name, YHWH. So whatever God is... three in one or one who can manifest Himself in many different ways.... He is it as far as the commandment goes. No honor should be given to another.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

After Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt, Joshua took them into the Promised Land. Their King, Solomon built a Temple in what is now the City of Jerusalem. When Solomon dedicated the Temple, like any politician, he spoke before the gathered multitude, " ... so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other."

Solomon declared his monotheism more emphatically, or so it seems to me.

However, Solomon, "and all Israel with him" in a manner very much like Agamemnon in the Temple of Apollo, "offered sacrifices before the Lord." Solomon "offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the Lord: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats."

Solomon espoused monotheism, but with a pagan practice.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

Ken Rank said:
They were coming out of Egypt where many gods were worshiped. They carried that practice with them making a golden young bull and calling it by God's name, YHWH. So whatever God is... three in one or one who can manifest Himself in many different ways.... He is it as far as the commandment goes. No honor should be given to another.

Thanks for the information.

Phil 1:21 · Apr 13, 2017

Pagan said:
After Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt, Joshua took them into the Promised Land. Their King, Solomon built a Temple in what is now the City of Jerusalem. When Solomon dedicated the Temple, like any politician, he spoke before the gathered multitude, " ... so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other."

Solomon declared his monotheism more emphatically, or so it seems to me.

However, Solomon, "and all Israel with him" in a manner very much like Agamemnon in the Temple of Apollo, "offered sacrifices before the Lord." Solomon "offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the Lord: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats."

Solomon espoused monotheism, but with a pagan practice.

First of all, round of applause from me. You have a better knowledge of the OT than a lot of Christians. That being said, I need to correct one point you made. The sacrifices Solomon offered were not a pagan practice. They were sacrifices commanded by God in the book of Leviticus.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

JayW said:
First of all, round of applause from me. You have a better knowledge of the OT than a lot of Christians. That being said, I need to correct one point you made. The sacrifices Solomon offered were not a pagan practice. They were sacrifices commanded by God in the book of Leviticus.

Thanks for the information.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

After Solomon, Israel split into at least two parts, a northern part sometimes call Samaria and a southern part called Judah. Eventually they became part of the Persian Empire. Isaiah, in a sermon or maybe letter (Isaiah 45) to a Cyrus, possibly Cyrus the Great, Emperor of the Persian Empire, Isaiah quotes God, "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God," and he repeated the idea to Cyrus twice more.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

Greeks took over from the Persians and the Romans took over from the Greeks. According to Saint Luke, when Augustus ruled the Roman Empire and Herod ruled some of the Jews, Mary gave birth to Jesus in Bethlehem.

According to Saint Mark, Jesus preached to people in Galilee, which was an area that might have been the northern part of Samaria. While preaching, he annoyed Jews known as Pharisees, and they plotted to kill him.

On a trip to Jerusalem, or maybe one of several trips to Jerusalem, a Teacher of the Law asked Jesus “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” (Mark 12)

Jesus replied in part, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

For me that sounds like less of a commitment to monotheism, but he seems to me to agree with Moses, Solomon, and Isaiah. There is only one God.

Pagan · Apr 13, 2017

About two decades after Pilate allowed the Crucifixion, Saint James wrote to "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations." By that, I think he means Jews, but he means Christian Jews.

During a discussion of the relations between behavior and faith, he says, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

Seems like Saint James was a monotheist.

Saint Paul in a letter the the Church in Corinth in which he speaks about eating food sacrificed to idols, he says, "“There is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, ..."

So Paul says there is one God, but he mentions some of the complications, another Lord besides the Lord God and another entity, "the Father from whom all things came."

The Bible authors from Moses to Paul, all agree that there is only one God.

redleghunter · Apr 13, 2017

Pagan said:
If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

Depending on their age this is probably the best teaching tool compliments of a Luthern pastor:

Serving Zion · Apr 14, 2017

I haven't found any indication in Old Testament views, that anyone knew The Son of God before Jesus was born. There was The Word of God, which we presume is the Word of YHWH (eg, Deuteronomy 13:4, Jeremiah 1), and there was The Holy Spirit too (Psalms 51:11, Acts 28:25).

Jesus was conceived miraculously, not by Joseph. Jesus must have learned this during His childhood, coming to know YHWH as His real father. With that knowledge, His faith equipped Him to speak as the real, actual son of God, and to know God as His real father (John 14:9).

Jesus also came to be fully indwelled by The Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:16), and because having submitted Himself to God completely, that He would be the very form of God (Philippians 2:5-8), He had no doubt of His authority to speak whatever The Holy Spirit would speak through Him (John 8:58).

Now because Jesus was wrongfully condemned and suffered even against the most severe temptation to sin that is possible,

Selah (Today is Good Friday according to my calendar)

.. God has raised Him to reign forever at His right hand in heaven. This is, a human who has been resurrected and who lives forever (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

Now for us who come to know God, we recognise The Word of God whenever He speaks to us. I recognise The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit as distinctively recognisable voices, apart from the voices of other spirits. Their distinctiveness are recognisable by character and authority (so far as role of service is concerned), just as Jesus shows a contrast in authority between father and son in the parable of the vineyard owner (Matthew 21:33-45).

The Holy Spirit, rather has a role of service in representation of God to earth (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, Acts 2:38). The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and simultaneous in all His people, while I only ever witness The Spirit of Jesus Christ in individual persons whenever He appears.

The Word of The Father usually speaks to me only in prayer or through scripture.

Pagan · Apr 14, 2017

redleghunter said:
Depending on their age this is probably the best teaching tool compliments of a Luthern pastor:

A Christian friend of mine gave me a list of bad analogues for the Trinity. I think the video deals with the whole list.

Pagan · Apr 15, 2017

Trinitarians think of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as three persons.

In Matthew 11:17, maybe while preaching in Galilee, Jesus said “All things have been committed to me by my Father.” According to Jesus there is a person called the Father.

Then Jesus said, “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the
Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” So the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the son. According to Jesus they are separate things.

In John 14:16-17 during the Last Supper, Jesus said, “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” So again, Jesus, the Son, is not the Father, and Jesus, the Son, is not the Spirit.

Pagan · Apr 16, 2017

The Bible often speaks of God as the Father. I suppose that should mean that the Father is God.

In Pslam 89:26 Ethan T Ezrahite, possibly a theologian in Solomon’s court quotes God, “He [he may refer to King David] will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’” So according to Mr Ezrahite, the Father is God. I suppose the mention of "my Savior" could show that Jesus, the son, is also God.

In Isaiah 63:16, Isaiah speaks to God, "But you are our Father, ... " and he repeats, " ... you, Lord, are our Father, " So According to Isaiah, the Father is God.

Jesus refers to God as the father. In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:9 Jesus recites the Lord’s Prayer which addresses God as “Our Father … “

Just before the last Supper In Matthew 26:39 Jesus addresses God and says, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” So Jesus, the Son, prays to the Father, and since Jesus cannot pray to himself, Jesus, the Son, is is not the Father. Since Jesus prays to the Father, the Father must be God.

To summarize, Christianity has at least four ways to refer to God, which are God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. We know that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit cannot be three gods because the Bible repeats ad nauseum that there is only one God.

At this point, there should be only two items left. Does the Bible say that the Son is God, and the Spirit is God?

Pagan · Apr 16, 2017

The Bible also speaks about how the Son is God.

Paul says in a letter to Titus 2:13, "... while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, ..."

And in a letter to the Philippians 2:5-6, Paul says “ … Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, ..."

In the Gospel of John 20:28 after the crucifixion Jesus returns to encourage faithfull, and Thomas says to Jesus “My Lord and my God!”

So according to Paul and Thomas, Jesus is God.

Albion · Apr 17, 2017

Pagan said:
Trinitarians think of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as three persons.

But not as we normally use the word "person" to mean separate, individual, beings.

Pagan · Apr 17, 2017

Albion said:
But not as we normally use the word "person" to mean separate, individual, beings.

The nature of the persons, Father, Son, and Holy may be above my pay grade, but this is what I think I know right now.

The New Testament authors understood that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were each God, and that they each somehow were not each other. The words Trinity and Person did not exist in their vocabulary. An early Christian, third century theologian, Tertullian, coined the words, trinity and person, to describe the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to God. The modern Christian Church uses Tertullian’s vocabulary, but it has not adopted his view of the relationship of the parts to the whole.

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