Trinity

[ChetSinger]

Hebrew Henotheism This is interesting read

Orthodox Christian scholars are saying similar things. Yes, the Israelites believed that God apportioned mankind among seventy "sons of God" after the dispersion at Babel. They were high-ranking territorial angels who also show up, for example, in Daniel as the Prince of Greece and Prince of Persia. And they may be the same spirits spoken of in Psalm 82. And in Job 1 and Job 38.

Orthodox Christian scholars have been saying the same thing for years. The papers collected here are some examples: The Divine Council.

 

[fatboys]

do mormons teach on the millennium???

do mormons teach on homosexuality...??

Are you saying that the teaching of the trinity is equal to these things.

 

[fatboys]

Orthodox Christian scholars are saying similar things. Yes, the Israelites believed that God apportioned mankind among seventy "sons of God" after the dispersion at Babel. They were high-ranking territorial angels who also show up, for example, in Daniel as the Prince of Greece and Prince of Persia. And they may be the same spirits spoken of in Psalm 82. And in Job 1 and Job 38.

Orthodox Christian scholars have been saying the same thing for years. The papers collected here are some examples: The Divine Council.

Thanks that is really interesting, I havent finished it yet, but it is a good read as well.

 

[ChetSinger]

Thanks that is really interesting, I havent finished it yet, but it is a good read as well.

You're welcome. I should point out, though, that Jesus isn't one of the seventy. Instead, he's the "only" (monogenes=unique, one-of-a-kind) Son, the personified Word and Wisdom of YHWH.

 

[fatboys]

You're welcome. I should point out, though, that Jesus isn't one of the seventy. Instead, he's the "only" (monogenes=unique, one-of-a-kind) Son, the personified Word and Wisdom of YHWH.

Thanks again

 

[Imagican]

Proof? Here's evidence: Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism


As I said, the word is just a label to describe a concept. To my knowledge, Karl Marx didn't describe his concepts as "Marxism". Nevertheless, others put that label on his concepts, and that's OK.

So now, like ALL 'trinitarians' seem apt to do, you try and compare a concept concerning that which pertains to THIS WORLD to that which pertains to GOD. An effort in futility.............


Not true. In the gospels, for example, Thomas called the risen Jesus his God, and was not considered blasphemous.

No, that is how you choose to READ it according to your preconceived notions of 'trinity'. For once Thomas recognized Christ as the Son of God, he was merely acknowledging his mistake to both The Son and His Father. Read it according to the manner in which we are TOLD to read the Bible and you will see that your error lies in your FOUNDATION. Not in what Thomas offered. For we are instructed to compare ALL scripture to EACH OTHER. Thomas KNEW Jesus Christ AS The Son of God. NEVER did Christ claim to be GOD to His disciples. So that in and of itself SHOWS that what you have chosen to SEE in his words is MISTAKEN. For Thomas would NOT have called God's Son GOD. He KNEW better.

It's like this: Thomas doubting the identity of Jesus, was in essence offending not ONLY God's Son, but God Himself. Hence, Thomas' acknowledgment of this to BOTH Son and Father: God. In essence Thomas was acknowledging BOTH the Son of God and God Himself. No different than if he had stated, FORGIVE ME Lord and forgive me GOD.

Nice try though.


As I said, the word is just a label to describe a concept.

And once again, how does one suppose that they can compare that which pertains to 'this world' to that which pertains to God Himself?


I'm sorry, but even pagan sources state that Christians were worshiping Jesus long before Nicea.

Yes they were, AS the Son of God. Not God Himself.


Says who? The concept of God himself is impossible to understand. Are you claiming to comprehend God? I doubt it.

I comprehend ENOUGH of God to know that He and His Son are NOT the same. That His Son is NOT ''Co-Equal" nor 'Co-Eternal'. For the Bible plainly illustrates a TIME before the Son. A time BEFORE all that the Son possessed was GIVEN unto Him by God.

YOUR God may well be IMPOSSIBLE to understand. But MY God has offered us the understanding that we need through His Word and Spirit. Not to mention that His own begotten Son revealed Him to us.

So NO, you are certainly WRONG about this. For who would worship something that they CANNOT comprehend other than someone VOID of that which BRINGS about understanding?

Once one is TRULY 'born again', the Spirit reveals that which increases 'faith'. And that which increases faith IS 'understanding'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rescued One]

Sunday school
sacrament Meeting
priesthood meeting
bread and water instead of bread and wine
tobacco
quorum
general authority
age of accountability
men must wear slacks, coat and tie

Those are not in my Bible.

 

[fatboys]

Sunday school
sacrament Meeting
priesthood meeting
bread and water instead of bread and wine
tobacco
quorum
general authority
age of accountability
men must wear slacks, coat and tie

Those are not in my Bible.

So

 

[Rescued One]

So

a needle pulling thread

La

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sunday school
sacrament Meeting
priesthood meeting
bread and water instead of bread and wine
tobacco
quorum
general authority
age of accountability
men must wear slacks, coat and tie

Those are not in my Bible.

You might also add Sunday being changed into Saturday. Not in my Bible. This is significant because Mormons proclaim that they must obey the Ten Commandments in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, yet they fail to obey the Fourth Commandment.

 

[fatboys]

a needle pulling thread

La

A note to follow so lol

 

[fatboys]

Did Ancient Israelites Believe God Had a Wife? | Unorthodox Faith

Another interesting read

 

[peebly63]

so you think some isrealites claimed god was married to a woman, not another godess but a flesh and blood woman, my goodness I have to see this...lol

 

[Imagican]

Sunday school
sacrament Meeting
priesthood meeting
bread and water instead of bread and wine
tobacco
quorum
general authority
age of accountability
men must wear slacks, coat and tie

Those are not in my Bible.

and you point is?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

and you point is?Blessings,MEC

Already been there and did that go and see:
Who believes Jesus is God?? (2)

 

[fatboys]

You might also add Sunday being changed into Saturday. Not in my Bible. This is significant because Mormons proclaim that they must obey the Ten Commandments in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, yet they fail to obey the Fourth Commandment.

The ten commandments are not going to bring salvation. They are a prepratory law that brings us to the two great commandments.

 

[peebly63]

It might be hard to imagine but up intil 1840 ish the mormons believed in the trinity it was endorsed by smith the founder...

ook of Mormon (1830):

And now, behold this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen" (2 Nephi 31:21; emphasis added).

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said; Yea, there is a true and living God. And Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me (Alma 11:26-31; emphasis added).




Doctrine and Covenants:

In the early sections of the LDS scripture, Doctrine and Covenants, are clear teachings that there is only one eternal God:

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them. . . . Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end (20:17; 1830; emphasis added).1

Smith wrote the Book of Mormon by 1830 and these early sections of Doctrine and Covenants were written in the same year. However, when we read the later sections we find that Smith's teaching of one God radically changed:

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore they shall be from everlasting to everlasting, because the continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them (132:20; 1843; emphasis added).



Pearl of Great Price:

We also find this doctrinal switching in the LDS scripture Pearl of Great Price. In the first book of the Pearl of Great Price is the book of Moses. The book of Moses text is an excerpt from Smith's own translation of the Bible called the Inspired Version,2 which is from 1830.

And I, God said: Let there be light . . . And I, God saw the light . . . And I, God called the light Day; and the darkness, I called Night. . . . (Moses, 2:3-5; emphasis added)

And I, God made two great lights . . . And I, God set them in the firmament of the heaven . . . And I, God, said; Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. . . . (ibid., 16-17, 20; emphasis added).


However, when you turn to the next book (Abraham) in the Pearl of Great Price, you find something very interesting. When we compare the same verses in Abraham (ch. 4 was penned in 1842) with the book of Moses (penned in 1830) we find Smith's doctrinal switching most obvious:

And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light . . . And they (the Gods) comprehended the light. . . . And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. . . . (Abraham, 4:3-5; emphasis added).

And the Gods organized the two great lights . . . And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens… And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life. . . . (ibid., 16-17, 20; emphasis added)

These are only a few examples of the verse-to-verse comparisons of the book of Moses (ch. 2) and Abraham (ch. 4).

The point is: the word "God" is singular throughout Moses chapter 2 and in the book of Abraham, which is, almost verbatim, the same account as in Moses, the word "God" is changed to "Gods" ("Gods" 47 times in ch. 4). Keep in mind that Smith penned this section of the book of Abraham in 1842 and Moses is from 1830.

Joseph Smith started out, in 1830, teaching that there is only one God but by 1844, Smith is declaring full-blown polytheism (i.e., many Gods):

I will preach on the plurality of Gods… I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. . . . Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods (Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370; given August 15, 1844; emphasis added).

Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one. . . . (ibid., 346; emphasis added).

 

[Imagican]

Already been there and did that go and see:
Who believes Jesus is God?? (2)

I think you misunderstood my post. Peebly was pointing out that there are words used by SOME that do not exist in the Bible. She made a list. I simply asked her what her point is.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[fatboys]

It might be hard to imagine but up intil 1840 ish the mormons believed in the trinity it was endorsed by smith the founder...

ook of Mormon (1830):

And now, behold this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen" (2 Nephi 31:21; emphasis added).

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said; Yea, there is a true and living God. And Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me (Alma 11:26-31; emphasis added).




Doctrine and Covenants:

In the early sections of the LDS scripture, Doctrine and Covenants, are clear teachings that there is only one eternal God:

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them. . . . Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end (20:17; 1830; emphasis added).1

Smith wrote the Book of Mormon by 1830 and these early sections of Doctrine and Covenants were written in the same year. However, when we read the later sections we find that Smith's teaching of one God radically changed:

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore they shall be from everlasting to everlasting, because the continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them (132:20; 1843; emphasis added).



Pearl of Great Price:

We also find this doctrinal switching in the LDS scripture Pearl of Great Price. In the first book of the Pearl of Great Price is the book of Moses. The book of Moses text is an excerpt from Smith's own translation of the Bible called the Inspired Version,2 which is from 1830.

And I, God said: Let there be light . . . And I, God saw the light . . . And I, God called the light Day; and the darkness, I called Night. . . . (Moses, 2:3-5; emphasis added)

And I, God made two great lights . . . And I, God set them in the firmament of the heaven . . . And I, God, said; Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. . . . (ibid., 16-17, 20; emphasis added).


However, when you turn to the next book (Abraham) in the Pearl of Great Price, you find something very interesting. When we compare the same verses in Abraham (ch. 4 was penned in 1842) with the book of Moses (penned in 1830) we find Smith's doctrinal switching most obvious:

And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light . . . And they (the Gods) comprehended the light. . . . And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. . . . (Abraham, 4:3-5; emphasis added).

And the Gods organized the two great lights . . . And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens… And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life. . . . (ibid., 16-17, 20; emphasis added)

These are only a few examples of the verse-to-verse comparisons of the book of Moses (ch. 2) and Abraham (ch. 4).

The point is: the word "God" is singular throughout Moses chapter 2 and in the book of Abraham, which is, almost verbatim, the same account as in Moses, the word "God" is changed to "Gods" ("Gods" 47 times in ch. 4). Keep in mind that Smith penned this section of the book of Abraham in 1842 and Moses is from 1830.

Joseph Smith started out, in 1830, teaching that there is only one God but by 1844, Smith is declaring full-blown polytheism (i.e., many Gods):

I will preach on the plurality of Gods… I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. . . . Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods (Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370; given August 15, 1844; emphasis added).

Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one. . . . (ibid., 346; emphasis added).

Oh no the church is not longer true. What was I thinking of. There can't be a trinity. Oh no what am I going to do. Peeblys we still believe there are three and those three make one Godhead. That is all it is saying

 

[peebly63]

Oh no the church is not longer true. What was I thinking of. There can't be a trinity. Oh no what am I going to do. Peeblys we still believe there are three and those three make one Godhead. That is all it is saying

lol..you clearly haven't read it ...lol

it shows smith believed in the trinity yet 20 ish years later he didn't...

if God told him what was true he din't do a very good job..lol