One of my friends asked why did Jesus has to die for us. To this my other friend answered Jesus died so that He paved a way for us to God by suffering the punishment for our sins and giving us salvation and thus justification. To this my friend no.1 asked, "then y did God have to choose Jesus and not others?" To this friend no.2 answered that God came in the form of a human, Jesus, to save us. Trinity: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So is God and Jesus the same? If they are the same, y must one be the Son and the other the Father?
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Trinity
- Thread starter fei.WTH
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saint
1 Timothy 6:20 (YLT)
In spiritual world, someone don't have to be in only one body to be one. Very best friends, or relatives, in our culture sometimes agree 100% on some topic. Jesus, Holy Spirit and Father agree all the time on all topics.
To human eyes and measures God is trinity.
I and my Father are one. - Statement of Jesus in John's gospel , chapter 10 verse 30.
To human eyes and measures God is trinity.
I and my Father are one. - Statement of Jesus in John's gospel , chapter 10 verse 30.
They are also friends, partners and all other good relations are included in this; best state is logical state for God.fei.WTH said:
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endure
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you have asked a question that most people dont even think can be answered and many people debate heavily about so tread lightly, but just know that this is one of those subjects that you wont determine your salvation or destruction so dont worry too much about it.
i dont believe Jesus and Father are the same person or thing at all.
Jesus once said things like
1. i do nothing of myself, but of the father.
2. i know nothing of myself, but only what the father tells me.
3. without the father i can do nothing.
he prayed to the father.
he was once called good, and Jesus asnwered and said
who is good except the father?
if jesus himself says he isnt "good" like the father is "good" cant do anything without the father, or know anything without the father, i dont believe he is the father.
becuase if he was the father he would not have needed to say any of those 3 statements that he did and many more.
he would not have needed to pray to the father.
and he would not have denied good like the father is good.
i believe Jesus, the father, and the holyghost are 3 seperate persons that work in perfect unity with each other.
and the reason they are called one, is becuase of that unity between them, just as a man and his lover can be called ONE through intercourse though they are never the same person.
God uses words like "US" over and over, and i dont beleive my God talks to himself.
and actually the hebrew word that the word "God" as in gen 1.1, came from is "ELOHIM".
and this is a uni-plural noun meaning God'S.
and is translated as plural pronouns and verbs sometimes.
Gen 20.13
"the GODS they caused me to wander"
Gen 35.7
"there the GODS they appeared unto him"
i myself believe they are 3 diffrent persons.
many disagree and may think i am a heretic but this is what i believe.
i dont believe Jesus and Father are the same person or thing at all.
Jesus once said things like
1. i do nothing of myself, but of the father.
2. i know nothing of myself, but only what the father tells me.
3. without the father i can do nothing.
he prayed to the father.
he was once called good, and Jesus asnwered and said
who is good except the father?
if jesus himself says he isnt "good" like the father is "good" cant do anything without the father, or know anything without the father, i dont believe he is the father.
becuase if he was the father he would not have needed to say any of those 3 statements that he did and many more.
he would not have needed to pray to the father.
and he would not have denied good like the father is good.
i believe Jesus, the father, and the holyghost are 3 seperate persons that work in perfect unity with each other.
and the reason they are called one, is becuase of that unity between them, just as a man and his lover can be called ONE through intercourse though they are never the same person.
God uses words like "US" over and over, and i dont beleive my God talks to himself.
and actually the hebrew word that the word "God" as in gen 1.1, came from is "ELOHIM".
and this is a uni-plural noun meaning God'S.
and is translated as plural pronouns and verbs sometimes.
Gen 20.13
"the GODS they caused me to wander"
Gen 35.7
"there the GODS they appeared unto him"
i myself believe they are 3 diffrent persons.
many disagree and may think i am a heretic but this is what i believe.
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Karl - Liberal Backslider
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No, there's nothing heretical about three persons - indeed, that's orthodox.
However, these three persons are one substance - one God. There is only one God, so if Our Lord is divine, He must be part of the same God substance as the Father.
Jesus is not the Father
Jesus is God
The Father is God
This is, admittedly, a tad esoteric and preachers usually fight each other to avoid preaching on Trinity Sunday
But referring back to your original context - why Jesus? Why wouldn't someone else do? Because the penal substitution model you're working with - "Jesus gets punished instead of us" is incomplete (not necessarily wrong, just incomplete)
Personally (although an Orthodox priest tells me this is their understanding as well) I see the Passion (Our Lord's suffering and death) as being the culmination of His Incarnation. The Incarnation embodies reconciliation between God and Man because Jesus is both God and Man. But in the Passion Our Lord takes His humanity right through the worst humanity has to offer. To really be fully human, He goes through abandonment, unjust suffering, pain, rejection, bewilderment and death. This completes His incarnation - God has become fully, completely and perfectly Man, and therefore God and Man are reconciled. His Resurrection brings reconciled Man to life, and His ascension takes Humanity right into the very Godhead itself. None of this would work if Jesus were just a man.
But I digress.
However, these three persons are one substance - one God. There is only one God, so if Our Lord is divine, He must be part of the same God substance as the Father.
Jesus is not the Father
Jesus is God
The Father is God
This is, admittedly, a tad esoteric and preachers usually fight each other to avoid preaching on Trinity Sunday
But referring back to your original context - why Jesus? Why wouldn't someone else do? Because the penal substitution model you're working with - "Jesus gets punished instead of us" is incomplete (not necessarily wrong, just incomplete)
Personally (although an Orthodox priest tells me this is their understanding as well) I see the Passion (Our Lord's suffering and death) as being the culmination of His Incarnation. The Incarnation embodies reconciliation between God and Man because Jesus is both God and Man. But in the Passion Our Lord takes His humanity right through the worst humanity has to offer. To really be fully human, He goes through abandonment, unjust suffering, pain, rejection, bewilderment and death. This completes His incarnation - God has become fully, completely and perfectly Man, and therefore God and Man are reconciled. His Resurrection brings reconciled Man to life, and His ascension takes Humanity right into the very Godhead itself. None of this would work if Jesus were just a man.
But I digress.
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Karl - Liberal Backslider
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One of the human limitations Jesus humbled Himself to was prayerful dependance on the Father.
Jesus did not pray to Himself, He prayed to the Father.
Jesus did not pray to Himself, He prayed to the Father.
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God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. They are each separate persons, but share the same Divine nature.
Sound confusing? Don't expect to fully understand it. Think of this way, God is an infinite being meaning He has no beginning and no end--He just is. Now don't think just in terms of time (God is unchanging, and since time is just a measure of change, God would have to exist outside of time, in fact he created it!) but in terms or everything i.e. since God is infinite, everything He is is infinite. His Love is infinite, His intelligence is infinite, etc.
Now since God is infinite, and everything about Him is infinite, there can only be one God, that is, since He is by nature infinite, it would be impossible to tell where one god ended and the other god begin (keeping in mind that God has no beginning or end).
God exist infinitely in three person that share the same God nature. What about Jesus? Jesus, who is one of the persons of God, contained (contains?) two natures: he was fully God (as he claimed in scripture, and as was shown through his resurrection) and fully man (he was born, he died, he was hungry, he was tired, he felt pain, etc.). He was God incarnate. But why did it have to be Jesus? He had to fulfill the Law which is something non of us could do. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) and since all of us sin we deserve death "For the wages of sin is death (wages - refer back to Romans 4:4 where Paul explains that when a man works, his wages are credited to him as an "obligation"; therefore each of us are actually obligated to death!)" (Romans 6:23) The good news is that Jesus took our place, and gives us the free gift of life! All we have to do is except him.
Don't feel bad if you can't fully understand the Trinity, after all, I don't think anybody fully does. The reason why it's such a hard concept to grasp is because everything in our world is finite, so it's hard to associate the Trinity with a physical example (for example I could give an example of 3 different people who all share the same human nature, but this a flawed example because humans are by nature finite, and you'd just end up with three humans and not one human existing in three persons).
This is how I understand it anyway. Hope this helps, and hope I didn't confuse you anymore.
God Bless!
Sound confusing? Don't expect to fully understand it. Think of this way, God is an infinite being meaning He has no beginning and no end--He just is. Now don't think just in terms of time (God is unchanging, and since time is just a measure of change, God would have to exist outside of time, in fact he created it!) but in terms or everything i.e. since God is infinite, everything He is is infinite. His Love is infinite, His intelligence is infinite, etc.
Now since God is infinite, and everything about Him is infinite, there can only be one God, that is, since He is by nature infinite, it would be impossible to tell where one god ended and the other god begin (keeping in mind that God has no beginning or end).
God exist infinitely in three person that share the same God nature. What about Jesus? Jesus, who is one of the persons of God, contained (contains?) two natures: he was fully God (as he claimed in scripture, and as was shown through his resurrection) and fully man (he was born, he died, he was hungry, he was tired, he felt pain, etc.). He was God incarnate. But why did it have to be Jesus? He had to fulfill the Law which is something non of us could do. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) and since all of us sin we deserve death "For the wages of sin is death (wages - refer back to Romans 4:4 where Paul explains that when a man works, his wages are credited to him as an "obligation"; therefore each of us are actually obligated to death!)" (Romans 6:23) The good news is that Jesus took our place, and gives us the free gift of life! All we have to do is except him.
Don't feel bad if you can't fully understand the Trinity, after all, I don't think anybody fully does. The reason why it's such a hard concept to grasp is because everything in our world is finite, so it's hard to associate the Trinity with a physical example (for example I could give an example of 3 different people who all share the same human nature, but this a flawed example because humans are by nature finite, and you'd just end up with three humans and not one human existing in three persons).
This is how I understand it anyway. Hope this helps, and hope I didn't confuse you anymore.
God Bless!
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http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm
scroll down and there are sections that explain the Trinity nicely.
scroll down and there are sections that explain the Trinity nicely.
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