Trinity

[JustAsIam77]

Are all 3 equal in power and glory?

 

[R.J.S]

Yes.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Trinity/

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Yes.

What he said.

See it in the Athanasian creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html

 

[JustAsIam77]

Yes.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Trinity/

I'm sure it seemed a stupid question but I was hoping to get a quick, short and simple answer, "yes", which I did.

Thanks.

In Him

P.S. Love that website!

 

[JustAsIam77]

What he said.

See it in the Athanasian creed: http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html

Thank you for your reference. Much appreciated...

 

[nasa1]

Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, so no.
Believe the Bible before you believe the Creeds of man.
NASA

 

[JustAsIam77]

Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, so no.
Believe the Bible before you believe the Creeds of man.
NASA

Greetings Nasa.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phillipians 2:5-11&version=31

 

[AndOne]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-5;&version=47;

 

[nasa1]

What would be the Calvinist answer to Jesus saying that the Father was greater than Him?


NASA

 

[AndOne]

What would be the Calvinist answer to Jesus saying that the Father was greater than Him?


NASA

I don't believe Jesus ever specifically said that the Father was greater.

Since you didn't provide the scripture you were refering to I am going to assume you were refering to John 5:19-23:

Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

If anything these verses only solidify the equality of the Son to the Father - yet the Son in His righteousness submits Himself to the Father.

 

[Elderone]

What would be the Calvinist answer to Jesus saying that the Father was greater than Him?


NASA

Here is the passage that is being talked about:

Joh 14:28 ¶ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Here is what John Gill says about "for my Father is greater than I".

for my Father is greater than I: not with respect to the divine nature, which is common to them both, and in which they are both one; and the Son is equal to the Father, having the self-same essence, perfections, and glory: nor with respect to personality, the Son is equally a divine person, as the Father is, though the one is usually called the first, the other the second person; yet this priority is not of nature, which is the same in both; nor of time, for the one did not exist before the other; nor of causality, for the Father is not the cause of the Son’s existence; nor of dignity, for the one has not any excellency which is wanting in the other; but of order and manner of operation: these words are to be understood, either with regard to the human nature, in which he was going to the Father, this was prepared for him by the Father, and strengthened and supported by him, and in which he was made a little lower than the angels, and consequently must be in it inferior to his Father; or with regard to his office as Mediator, in which he was the Father’s servant, was set up and sent forth by him, acted under him, and in obedience to him, and was now returning to give an account of his work and service; or rather with regard to his present state, which was a state of humiliation: he was attended with many griefs and sorrows, and exposed to many enemies, and about to undergo an accursed death; whereas his Father was in the most perfect happiness and glory, and so in this sense "greater". That is, more blessed and glorious than he; for this is not a comparison of natures, or of persons, but of states and conditions: now he was going to the Father to partake of the same happiness and glory with him, to be glorified with himself, with the same glory he had with him before the foundation of the world; wherefore on this account, his disciples ought to have rejoiced, and not have mourned.

The answer to original OP "Are all 3 equal in power and glory?" is YES. That is Biblical and that is what a Calvinist would answer.

 

[AndOne]

I stand corrected - thanks Elderone....

That is a good explanation by Gill too.

 

[Elderone]

I stand corrected - thanks Elderone....

That is a good explanation by Gill too.

DMI

Even though Dr. John Gill was a Baptist his commentary is great.

 

[hlaltimus]

Are all 3 equal in power and glory?

Yes, they are all equal in power, glory and any other personal attribute, but there is a great difference between what one possesses and what one exercises. When Jesus said that the Father was greater than he was, it took into account a preplanned redemptive relationship which the Trinity had agreed to prior, that no one member of that Trinity would or could displace the other's original, initiated and divinely unlimited free will at any one fixed moment in time relative to our perspective. Each person of the Trinity is allowed the Divine liberty of exercising their Divine free will, only at different points in their unfixed eternal moment relative to our one fixed point in time. God the Father exercises His will before our experience, God the Son exercises His will during our experience, and God the Holy Spirit exercises His will beyond our experience...."Who was, who is and who is to come" being then a statement which represents not Christ our Lord alone, but the entire triune God corporately. The Father and the Holy Spirit preside respectively in what we might call eternity past and future because neither one was intended to be an "in time" mediator as Christ was, hence His humanity/divinity which qualifies Him both to touch mankind as a representative Man in time, while also mediating unto God the Father, by God the Holy Spirit, and as God the Son in eternity for our redemption since He is still Divine.

The only way we ever could study this incomprehensible Triune Being would be from our one, fixed point of conscious thought in time and since no member of the Trinity can or ever would violate another's initiated act of Divine free will at any one moment in our solitary fixed point of experience, one Member alone must stand ordinate over the other two Members at that one fixed moment in time. He, Jesus, said that He came not to do His own will but the will of His Father! Right...So according to this thought, the Son's exercise of His will in time was really a responsive act of will in subordination to an original and initiated act of will of His Father from eternity past. The Holy Spirit, likewise, initiates His will in time, only again as a responsive act of will in subordination to the Son who is Himself subordinate to the Father's original, initiated and eternal will. It was Christ who said, "The Holy Spirit who I will send."

This scheme though would appear to make the Father's will superior in quality to both the Son's responsive will and the Holy Spirit's will likewise, except that we still do not know how they relate to each other solely in eternity and that relationship is yet another matter beyond our inspection which will no doubt justify their independent, Divine equality of one to another.

In this way Christ said that the Father was "greater than he", Christ was, but it is no reflection of inferiority upon either Divine Being of Christ or the blessed Holy Spirit. They are all equal in what they possess, but not necessarily in what they exercise. A profound mystery.

 

[hlaltimus]

They all must be equal in power and glory since all three members of the Trinity have particularly been expressed as being divine in different places in the scriptures. What other kind of power could a divine Being then possess other than infinite power or an infinite glory for that matter? Jesus is no less limitless than the Father is and the same would hold true for the Holy Spirit, but what a Being possesses and what He uses are two different things. If three men of perfectly equal strength, intelligence and deportment agree to walk in a straight line, there is then a difference placed in relationship one above another without depriving any three of personal equality otherwise. Jesus said that the Father was "greater than Him" not out of a personal inferiority on Christ's part, but out of a prearranged relationship between the Three which involved sequential acts from all three members relative to a future, forthcoming act of One which was yet to be. Something like three equally matched relay race runners: The last runner must submit to the second runner who must himself submit to the first, but they're all still equal as far as running ability is concerned. It is also at this point that the doctrine of eternal predestination really gets complicated and well nigh incomprehensible as any view which poses the Father as solely having an initiated will, while the will of the Son and the will of the Holy Spirit are always portrayed as being purely responsive in nature must eventually prove inaccurate. In other words, at different points in the work of the Trinity on behalf of mankind and for our redemption, the Son and the Spirit together must submit to the Father, the Father and the Holy Spirit together must submit to the Son, and the Father and the Son together must submit to the Holy Spirit.
It must be true, but mapping out such a comprehensive concept may require heaven itself.

 

[Beoga]

DMI

Even though Dr. John Gill was a Baptist his commentary is great.

A broken clock is correct twice a day .
I do like Gill though, his commentary has been helpful for me.

 

[mlqurgw]

We worship God the Father and God the Spirit as they are equal in power and essense. But we worship the Triune God through Jesus the son who in all things has preeminence. Col. 1:18
http://donfortner.com/sermon_notes/51_colossians/col%2001v18%20The%20Pre-eminence%20of%20Christ%20in%20the%20Trinity%201248.htm

 

[JustAsIam77]

We worship God the Father and God the Spirit as they are equal in power and essense. But we worship the Triune God through Jesus the son who in all things has preeminence. Col. 1:18
http://donfortner.com/sermon_notes/51_colossians/col%2001v18%20The%20Pre-eminence%20of%20Christ%20in%20the%20Trinity%201248.htm

Pre-eminence...

Interesting. Your view is similar to the way in which I think of the Trinity.

To me, Jesus does have pre-eminence as well as the intermediary between myself and God the Father.

And the HS is a very powerful force in my life by convicting me on a regular basis of the truth that He is real.

Now I conceed that I love God the Father and the HS, however, Jesus has always been the primary focus in my Christian life. He made my eternal salvation possible.

Not to say that God the Father or the Holy Spirit are less in importance. Heaven forbid! But Jesus makes reconciliation possible with the other 2. Without Jesus all hope of escaping our just destiny, (eternal damnation), is lost.


In Him

 

[HappyChicken]

Thanks for the info on this thread. It's been helpful... I have had a hard time wrapping my brain around the Trinity doctrine.

 

[hlaltimus]

Yes, all three members of the Trinity are equal in power, glory or any other divine attribute since the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all plainly recognized as being divine in the scriptures. If all three members are addressed as being divine, (which they are,) then limitless personal quality is essential to divinity and so no one member may or can extend his personal attributes beyond the other. However, what a Being possesses and what that Being utilizes are two different things and this would explain the seeming discrepancy in Christ's statement that the Father was "greater" than he, Christ was. God the Father could not be greater than God the Son was in point of divine knowledge, presence or power, but relationally speaking a difference is allowed for just as three men who are all equal in stature, weight and strength may cooperatively agree upon to walk in a certain preplanned order. Number 1 leads, number 2 follows number 1, and number 3 follows number 2 who in turn is following number 1 !!! They're allowance for a subservient relationship with each other doesn't in the least change the fact that they're all still completely equally in personal quality. This reasoning holds true in the subjection of Christ, as a man, to God His Father. He, Christ, was still equal to the Father in infinite personal and divine quality, but He laid aside the use or right of His limitless potential voluntarily so that He could function as a man, so that His obedience would be a true human obedience and therefore usuable for us humans in point of pardon and justification.

Jesus was truly equal in power and glory with the Father as the Holy Spirit is likewise, but all three need not utilize their infinite potential in order for them to be infinite and that is perfectly within their prerogative. They seem at times to differ both functionally and relationally to us finite intellectual specks, but it is all part of a grand and glorious plan to get us off the hook and we had best make the most of this wonderful but sometimes confusing condescension on their part.