Trinity?

[constance]

We baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Please read the sticky.

Constance

 

[tsukino_Rei]

From the sticky -

"1) "No Creed but Christ." Acceptance of or adherence to a written creed is not necessary for fellowship, church membership, or participation in church practices. No Restoration Movement congregation has any written creeds.

2) "Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent." In essence, this means that congregations affiliated with the Restoration Movement reject chatechisms and the like, and base their beliefs only on Scripture.

3) "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, love." Believers affiliated with the Restoration Movement will not exclude other Christians from fellowship based on differing beliefs on "non-essential" doctrines. Restoration Movement believers will show love to believers with whom they may disagree."

 

[freespiritchurch]

I'm confused. While beleif in the Nicene Creed is a requirement to be defined as Christian according the over-all forum guidelines, one of the defining principles of the Restoration Movement is that it does NOT require belief in any Creed, including the Nicene Creed. This seems a contradiction.

As trinitarianism in outlined the Nicene Creed but is not so specifically outlined in the Bible it would seem that the Restoration Movement does not, or at least should not, require belief in a Trinity.

I'm an ex-Catholic who joined the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), the most liberal group within the Restoration Movement. I think that Alexander Campbell was trying to say the same thing that Karl Rahner and Heinrich Fries wrote in their book Unity of the Churches An Actual Possibility.

No church of any significant size actually requires its members to believe in the doctrines of the Nicene Creed. If you went into a Roman Catholic (orthodox Presbyterian, Missouri Synod, etc.) and started asking the members detailed questions about the Trinity, you would find that the members held all sorts of unorthodox opinions.

People aren't expected to actually believe the creed of their church; they are only expected not to challenge the creed of their church. In the end, the creed serves more to differentiate one church from another than to actually define what people are allowed to believe.

Here's a quote from Alexander Campbell that expresses it pretty well.

"Few, therefore, can unite upon any one creed of opinions and inferences. The union that subsists in any one sect, built upon such inferences, is a union resolvable into ignorance and authority. I know so much of human nature as to authorize me to affirm that if any one sect...were to invite heir own people to examine their own creed, and to decide whether the inferences were fairly drawn, and then to insist upon an agreement in opinion, they would fall into a hundred sects in a short time. Almost every man who presumes to examine them, and assumes a little independence, becomes, in the estimation of his brethren, a heretic. They have, for the sake of peace, to keep their creed as much out of sight as possible, and to teach it without seeming to teach it." Millennial Harbinger 1:2 (1 Feb 1830), p. 56.

With that said, Restoration Movement teachers have affirmed that the Nicene Creed is an expression of Christian truth. As a soon-to-be pastor, I intend to make the Trinity a focus of my preaching and teaching...but I'd have to work just as hard to teach Trinitarian doctrine in any other church.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The believing that God is triune or the Father , son and Holy Ghost is what makes us christian. It has to be. All three are mentioned as part of God in some way or fashion in the bible, and God says he is one, and there's only one of him, so by conclusion he must be a triune God.This is what i believe. The Lord God is my god, and my only god, i shall not hold any other gods before him or honor or worship any god except the Lord God. I would not deny this, and would believe this unto death. I know this is radical, yet at the same time following in the footsteps of our lord Jesus Christ is radical and revolutionary in of itself.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Hi, constance. I'm Ravenonthe cross. It's nice to meet you. I've seen you post in...i think it was in an restoration thread. I as a catholic know very little about protestant churchs and am curious about them any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! I'd appreciate a reply greatly.

 

[constance]

Hi Ravenonthecross,

mrconstance would be a great person for you to talk to (he's the person posting above) - he has taught religion at catholic universities, he understands how to explain....

 

[tsukino_Rei]

The believing that God is triune or the Father , son and Holy Ghost is what makes us christian.

And here I thought following Christ and being transformed into Christ-likeness was what makes us Christian.

 

[constance]

little MOD HAT

Hi! I'd just like to let you know that this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3049353-[open]-whats-the-rm-whats-a-protestant.html

Is available to ask questions about our theology and practice. It's open to anyone, regardless of their faith icon. RMers, please feel free to join in there as well.

The current thread "Trinity?" is not open, if you are not a Restoration Movement congregation member, you may not debate here.

Thank you!

Mod hat off....

 

[hoadelphos]

I'm confused. While beleif in the Nicene Creed is a requirement to be defined as Christian according the over-all forum guidelines, one of the defining principles of the Restoration Movement is that it does NOT require beleif in any Creed, including the Nicene Creed. This seems a contradiction.

As trinitarianism in outlined the Nicene Creed but is not so specifically outlined in the Bible it would seem that the Restoration Movement does not, or at least should not, require beleif in a Trinity.

Quite true....most of the sphere of Christianity consider the RM to be unorthodox. And we are. But that is not to say we need to assert it here...there are plenty of topics to engage in instead of breaking the house rules.

All of the Creeds are true to some extent...it's the definition of terms that can be a problem. "Trinity"...not in the Bible by a long shot, but it does express the Godhead in a rather clumsy manner, but not off the mark to be a problem of faith.

EL is Hebrew for God; ELOHYM is the plural form of EL; the raw translation is mighty one. In Genesis it says "let us create man in our own image" and the raw Hebrew corresponds well with that translation. All of the Talmud and the Kabballah (not the New Age junk) confirms it. In fact, most of the NT is hidden within the OT...it was a mystery until Jesus came.

Consider this...Paul says that husband and wife are one...that is difficult for humans to really grasp intellectually and emotionally. The Bible says that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are also One...the finite has great difficulty in fully comprehending the infinite. I find that the Creeds are a crude attempt of the finite to define the Infinite.

 

[hoadelphos]

Here is something rather interesting that I ran across in the Hebrew OT

The first three letters of Torah, as written in Hebrew and translated as create, are BEIT-RESH-ALEF which stand for BEN, RUACH and ABBA, and translate into Son, Spirit and Father.

As I always say, the NT is hidden within the OT.

 

[lady06]

1 We all know that there is a GOD in heaven.

2 Who is Jesus Christ then?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now, the bible states clearly that Jesus Christ is the Word of God made into flesh i.e. incarnate into human form.

3 Who is the Holy Spirit? Read what the bible says:
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The above verses teach us that the Holy Spirit is really God's Spirit. Since Christ is the Word of God and is ONE with God, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ.

Thus, we have the Trinity, Father + Son + Holy Spirit.
All of the same essence yet separate. 3 = 1 (ONE GOD) & 1 = 3. ONE GOD not three.

God bless.

 

[aggie03]

Here is something rather interesting that I ran across in the Hebrew OT

The first three letters of Torah, as written in Hebrew and translated as create, are BEIT-RESH-ALEF which stand for BEN, RUACH and ABBA, and translate into Son, Spirit and Father.

As I always say, the NT is hidden within the OT.

This is rather interesting! Thanks for posting it.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

1 ...Thus, we have the Trinity, Father + Son + Holy Spirit. All of the same essence yet separate. 3 = 1 (ONE GOD) & 1 = 3. ONE GOD not three. God bless.

Not seperate, distinct.

The God Being is one yet consists of three Divine Persons sharing in the same essence (what makes God God) yet differing in subsistence.

Each Person in and of Themselves is Lord and God yet not 3 Lord's or 3 God's but 1 Lord and 1 God.

The Father is uncreated and unbegotten, the Son uncreated but begotten of the Father. The Spirit uncreated and unbegotten, proceeds from both the Father and the Son. He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of (God's) Son/of Christ.


Ray

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

people who return to Yahweh's plan do so a little at a time - they are not nearly able to do so all at once. this is largely because they can't find a group that is in Yahweh's plan whole heartedly like little children and fully trusting.
one of the first things someone returning to Yahweh in Yeshua's grace learns is the truth about Yahweh's Instructions and lovingly trustingly obeying Him.
this is learned from Abba Yahweh directly whenever someone gives up everything to follow and be united with Yeshua forever, immersed in Him.
He alone is Faithful and True, and no one who obediently trusts in Him is ever disappointed. What they learn is what the first century Jewish set-apart believers knew first hand, though now as then with persecution and suffering.
Returning to Yahweh's Plan in Yeshua's grace requires all of one's energy and power and love and hope and mind and strength and life - anything less is idolatry, like saying to Yahweh "You are first, as long as I can keep '...' ". Only the Father Abba Yahweh can accomplish this radical change in a persons life, anyone who thinks they have it made or that they can accomplish it themselves is lost, according to Yeshua's Word now and in the NT.