Trinity?

[Catchup]

When you stated this forum, I could not understand the need. But now here I am... again. It is nice to have a place to discuss issues, rather than debate.

The trinity has been a topic many time on the board. It usually ends with a "dead horse award", because the most vocal participates have decided it is a true doctrine and is not open for discussion.

I have heard it said that we must belive in trinity or we are not Christian. I do not know how any human can decide that another who professes Christ as their Saviour is not Christian? I would think that would be a matter between Christ and himself. I have stayed out of these debates because I do not wish to argue my salvation with mere humans.

But I can not grasp this weird concept of a three person God.

I see God has one.

I see Jesus as his only begotten Son and my Saviour. Jesus has been given all the power, wisdom and knowledge of God...by God. Jesus is the son of God. He overcame this world and became the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
He is seated at the right side of his Father. I believe this to mean...that he is the working force in our salvation and one day he will be our Judge. But he can only do that which his Father has given him to do. I do not see this has limiting Christ because I believe that God has entrusted ALL to his Son.

The Holy Spirit is derived from God.The Holy Spirit is a gift from God to help us in our journey.I feel the Spirit at work in my Soul. I have been touched in Supernatural ways that have helped me to understand, but at the same time has shown me there is so very much more that I am incapable of understanding.

I see God above all! I see him as an all encompassing Spirit of Good and Love. I do not see him as breaking apart into pieces. I see him alone as in Control of the Universe.

There was once a thread that asked us to choose if we could only have one...God or Jesus? Many chose Jesus. This made no sense to me because I feel all would cease to exist without God.

I think, the trinity doctrine is a feeble human attempt to try to identify and contain God in such a way that can be understood. I do not only.. not agree with it... but wonder if there is harm in worshiping more than one God. I know they say it is one but three. To me that sounds like double talk.

I definitely think the trinity doctrine is flawed. But what is not... once humans take control? It would be much better, if we accepted what we were told by God, and did not add words and concepts that are not biblical.

So where do you stand on all of this?

LOVE

 

[Messenger]

Amen
Love and God Bless

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Sorry to intrude Josephus...go ahead and delete this if I am in the way.

There is ONE God...He can take on three forms. Kind of like water, ice, vapor.

 

[Josephus]

bad anology there soul, since God isn't one and then another. Please refrain from posting until I've posted.


First, let me begin by saying I believe in just one God, who is ruler, creator, master over the entire universe. Only one being.


Now, I ask three important questions:

1. Do you believe the Father is God?

2. Do you believe Jesus is God?

3. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?


Scripture loudly proclaims the divinity of each. Which do you disagree with first?

 

[Josephus]

btw, people often fail to mention that the following are also treated as God in the bible:

Melchizedek
The Angel of the Lord
The Spirit of God
The Ancient of Days

Obviously seperate in their contexts, and seen as clearly different from one another, yet is somehow one and the same being: God Himself.

Also Jesus said this: "no greater love than this: a man lay down his life for his friends."

How can God prove his love to us if he can't die for us? Does this mean then that Jesus loves us more than God (assuming Jesus isn't God Himself?)

 

[Catchup]

There is ONE God...He can take on three forms. Kind of like water, ice, vapor.

I know you mean well. But the water explanation sounds diluted to me. You are using human reasoning to explain human reasoning.


LOVE

 

[Josephus]

did you read my answer?

 

[Catchup]

1. Do you believe the Father is God?

YES! He is my God and creator.

2. Do you believe Jesus is God?

I believe Jesus is the son of God. I believe everything was given to him by God. I do not believe that we owe our creation to Jesus. I do think he was there. Our salvation is from God through Jesus. Although I do not see Jesus as the origination of All. I feel physically closer to him than God, because he was sent to illuminate the possible good in mankind by teaching us of the Father. He gave his life for me. No human could have succeeded in his task. I try each day to keep my steps within the walk that he has directed. But I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to God in the name of Jesus. If Jesus were God than I would pray to Jesus.

3. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

The Holy Spirit is from God. It serves as a teacher and comforter in our present life. I cherish the Holy Spirit as a gift from God.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are necessary for our Salvation. So if this is all about me then I guess I should see them as God. But this is not all about me or you. For God would still be.... even if they had never been...He is Alpha and Omega. But would Jesus and the Holy Spirit have existed if there were no God?

This is so hard to explain. But I know that there is but one God who created all of us that deserves to be Loved, worshiped and obeyed. I will not separate him into pieces just because he sent us help when our need was so desperate. I would rather perish than deny God what he rightly deserves...the total love of my mind, heart, and soul.

LOVE

 

[Josephus]

Who do you believe loves us more? The Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

 

[Josephus]

and you also don't believe Jesus is God. Correct?

Well, could I point out that the Holy Spirit is God, and leave the divinity of Jesus to the side, since the divinity of the Holy Spirit is quicker to point out?

 

[Othniel]

Given: Jesus is not God.
Prove: Jesus sinned.

Given: Jesus is not God.
Rev. 22:9 - "Do not do it! (John worshiping an angel) I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
Deut. 5:11 - "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God."
John 21:28 - "Thomas said to him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God."
Matt. 14:33 - "Then those who were in the boat worshiped him [Jesus]"
Fact - Jesus does not rebuke those who worship him.
Fact - Jesus is breaking the 4th commandment in these (and other passages.
Proof: Jesus sinned.

Given: Jesus is not God.
Prove: Jesus is not Savior.

Given: Jesus is not God.
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."
Proven: Jesus is not the Savior.

Given: Jesus is not God.
Prove: The Bible is false prophecy, and therefore, by it's own statements, it is to be ignored completely.

Given: Jesus is not God.
Isaiah 9:6 - "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Matt 1:23 - "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God with us.' " (also 'Isaiah 7:14)
Deut 13:1-3 - "If a prophet...appears among you...and he says...'Let us follow other gods'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you..."
Proven: Both Isaiah and Matthew lied, the Bible contains false prophecy, and therefore must be ignored.

Now...Given: the Biblical Text
Prove: Jesus is the Hebrew God YHWH

Jerimiah 23:6 "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will raise up a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: "The Lord [YHWH] Our Rightesousness."
Proven: Jesus is the prophecied King and incarnation of the Hebrew God YHWH.

Given: the Biblical Text
Prove: God is more than one

Gen. 11:7 - "The Lord said, "...Come, let usgo down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
Proven: God, in the Bible, refers to Himself as plural.
(aslo, the word El Elohim (the first name for God given in Scripture) means Unity.)
I pray that I never tell anyone they themselves are not a Christian. But it is my duty as a servant of the Lord Most High to speak His Truth as laid out by His Word, the holy Scriptures, which, according to John 1:14, is Christ.

A person who does not accept that Christ conatains all the "fullness of God" (Colossians 2:9) and is "in very nature God" (Philippians 2:6) is deceived and refuses to acknowledge the clear Truth as taught in Scripture. Jesus claims to be God, his blasphemy, was the very thing the Pharisees killed him for. To ignore this Truth is to misunderstand who Christ is, and to jeopardize all other aspects of one's faith. The trinity is the name theologians have given to the unity Christ describes in Matt 28:19-20. It is not a perfect theology because we cannot understand it. But, given certain statements, I'm sure you will agree that because a human mind does not understand something is hardly conclusive proof that it is false.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. Prov 3:5

To deny Christ's Deity to call the Bible, God's Word, and therefore, God, a liar. I will do no such thing. I am the liar, God is my God and what He says, I praise Him for letting me hear.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

 

[Othniel]

Originally posted by Catchup

I believe everything was given to him by God. I do not believe that we owe our creation to Jesus. I do think he was there.

So when John 1:1-2 says "In the beginning wa the Word" and that "by Him all things were made" and when Christ calls Himself "the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last" in Rev. 22, the Bible is wrong?

But I do not pray to Jesus. I pray to God in the name of Jesus. If Jesus were God than I would pray to Jesus.

So when John says, "Amen. Come Lord Jesus." in Rev. 22:10, he is sinning?

The Holy Spirit is from God. It serves as a teacher and comforter in our present life. I cherish the Holy Spirit as a gift from God.

So when Gen in 6:3 God says "My Spirit will not contend with man forever," he is not talking about Himself, but a gift He would give us later?

So if this is all about me then I guess I should see them as God. But this is not all about me or you.

What makes you think I think it is? I have no desire but to know God. Without Him, what am I?

For God would still be.... even if they had never been...He is Alpha and Omega. But would Jesus and the Holy Spirit have existed if there were no God?

Again, Rev 22:12-16:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...I, Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

How is Christ both the Alpha and the Omega, and not?

This is so hard to explain. But I know that there is but one God who created all of us that deserves to be Loved, worshiped and obeyed.

Amen. It's not hard to explain though...the Bible makes it clear. The Lord our God is One. He is so great great a one that we cannot comprehend His oneness!

ot separate him into pieces just because he sent us help when our need was so desperate.

That seems accusatory. I do not separate God to pieces by believing His Word to be True. The doctrine of the Trinity does not separate God, but accepts the fullness of all His glory. To accuse us of believing otherwise is unfair.

I would rather perish than deny God what he rightly deserves...the total love of my mind, heart, and soul.

Amen siter. He is my everything, all of Him.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Sorry Josephus! My trigger finger was itchy! Sorry!

Anyway, Catchup, if I can't use human reasoning to explain something to a human, what should I use?

 

[Catchup]

Othniel: If I had wanted to speak to you. I would have opened a thread directed at you. Do you really think you said something I have not heard before?

Josephus asked

Who do you believe loves us more? The Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

This is exactly what I do not do. I do not try to crawl into the mind of God and speak as if I know it all. What a crazy question. The answer is what ever you want it to be. OK?

Tell me, Josephus, do you pray to Jesus?

LOVE

 

[Catchup]

and you also don't believe Jesus is God. Correct?

I believe what Jesus says... he is the son of God.

Give me a verse where Jesus says that he is God.

LOVE

 

[Catchup]

Are we to understand how three Beings are yet one God, or are we to understand how One being can be spoken of in three different ways?

I believe that God is also Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But I do not believe Jesus is God. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God. For they can not operate apart from God. God remains God even when he is the other two. There is no co-equality. There is no true division. Jesus would never have been God without God. The Holy Spirit would never have been God without God. All is derived from God. Everything we have seen and yet do not understand is all GOD. God is one!


The first poster to answer my thread spoke in terms of water. So I will use that same form to convey my point.

Think of God as the Ocean.

You can take waters from the Ocean and place it in another container.

Within every drop of this water will be all the elements that make up the Ocean.

For this water is from the Ocean...

But it is not the Ocean.

We have only seen a glimpse of the reality of God.

When Jesus returns it will be in the full glory of his Father.

So what do you think? Am I bound for hell?

LOVE

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Catchup
or are we to understand how One being can be spoken of in three different ways?

Yes, I think this is right Catchup. I don't think we can say that Jesus' wasn't God, since that was one form that He took. Him saying pray to the Father, is the same as saying pray to Me.

It is confusing, but I think you might be getting wrapped around the semantics, unless I misunderstand.

Peace.

 

[Catchup]

Him saying pray to the Father, is the same as saying pray to Me.

I do not agree. Jesus was never confused about God. That is a human condition. He told us and showed us exactly who we should pray to...Our Father in Heaven.

He did hint though, that his name carries a lot of weight with his Father.

So I pray to God in the name of Jesus. At the beginning of every prayer, I first give thanks...and I close with, May God's will be done.

My prayers are always to God.

LOVE

 

[Othniel]

Catch... if you ask a question in the Ask Joe forum, you ask it of Josephus, and of those who he has invited into the conversation. Would you please reread the forum rules thread. Responding in anger to Biblical quotations which demonstrate Truth is hardly the way to convince anyone of your point.

You've heard the "arguments" so...how do you interpret these verses to mean something other than there apparent meanings which, according to your stance, have confused me and cause me to blapheme my Lord in my service of Him. Where is the loving rebuke this began as. You actions have greatly confused me.

Originally posted by Catchup
Are we to understand how three Beings are yet one God, or are we to understand how One being can be spoken of in three different ways?

Isn't this kind of reasoning what you have argued against in the first place? You have a very confusing position.

I believe that God is also Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But I do not believe Jesus is God. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God. For they can not operate apart from God. God remains God even when he is the other two.

God the Father is always God. Yes. Jesus is not God but God is Jesus? umm....???? That's harder to accept than the Trinity concept...and I'd love to see your Sciptural support of this stance, which ought to include an interpretation of the verses you are accusing me of misinterpreting.

There is no co-equality. There is no true division. Jesus would never have been God without God. The Holy Spirit would never have been God without God. All is derived from God. Everything we have seen and yet do not understand is all GOD. God is one!

And God never would have been without God. It seems to me that this concept separates God a lot more than the Trinity does.

So Christ is God's eternal purpose and the Alpha and Omega,, but not God because God is one

That doesn't make Biblical sense.

The first poster to answer my thread spoke in terms of water. So I will use that same form to convey my point.
Think of God as the Ocean.
You can take waters from the Ocean and place it in another container.
Within every drop of this water will be all the elements that make up the Ocean.
For this water is from the Ocean...
But it is not the Ocean.

ACtually, it still is the ocean. It may not be the ocean in all its entirety , but that doesn not stop that water from being part of the ocean, and, when that water returned to the ocean, it would again be part of it as if it had never left. The ocean is one, but has many parts.

We have only seen a glimpse of the reality of God.

No doubt about it!

When Jesus returns it will be in the full glory of his Father.

Amen. Come Lord Jesus!

So what do you think? Am I bound for hell?

I think your position is as prevolent to human error as mine it, and that the only Truth we have is what the Scripture says. You will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your only Savior and Lord, for God will allow no other gods before Himself. What your relationship with our Father is in your heart, I can never truly know. The only thing I know is that the doctrine you've professed does not hold up to whollistic Biblical reading, but ignores certain verse, or claims them to somehow be in error, or in need of an interpretation that is not made plain by the context of the text. Doctrine can be a dangerous thing, and false doctrine can lead us to ruin. Paul warns Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because of its great Truth which frees us. It's a Biblical Truth that we must seek Truth as the Bible explains it, without changing it to fit our own minds, as you see better than many Christians I know. What I don't understand is why this concept is not applied to your own statement of doctrine in light of the many places in Scripture which attest to Christ's oneness with God, even his own words: "I and the Father our one." (John 10:30)

Peace and understanding to you, and to all who seek it,
<><

 

[OldBadfish]

ACtually, it still is the ocean. It may not be the ocean in all its entirety , but that doesn not stop that water from being part of the ocean, and, when that water returned to the ocean, it would again be part of it as if it had never left. The ocean is one, but has many parts.

Sorry to butt in, but can I ask why The Ice, Water, Vapor analogy is bad? Yes it is very general and not directly informative, but it is an analogy to describe 3 entities having 1 composition, since the trinity is impossible(or near impossible)to comprehend, isn't this a decent general analogy, isn't it essentially the same as the Ocean analogy?

Can we comprehend the trinity, or is it clearly for us not to comprehend?

Is there a human analogy that could be used to describe the trinity, other than the water analogy?

I would like Josephus or Othniel to clarify please.