Trinity

True Believer · Mar 29, 2004

I read the tirad linked in the above post against the should you believe the Trinity brochure.

Let's see now over and over agaian they admit that the trinity wasn't taught in the OT
They over and over again likened Jesus to women who although being equal to men are inferior.
Then they also like to point out that the Trinity of the Nicean creed is not the Trinity supposedly taught by the apostles.
What else? Oh Yea! They liked to call the quotes from items like the Encyclopedia "Satanic"
Real mature discussion there!!!!!!!!!!!!

lared · Mar 29, 2004

My, my. Such anger and bitterness towards the Witnesses, such a small insignificant group of people.
Rather frightening.

Der Alte · Mar 29, 2004

True Believer said:
I read the tirad linked in the above post against the should you believe the Trinity brochure.

Let's see now over and over agaian they admit that the trinity wasn't taught in the OT

This is a misleading statement, just like the article from the JW tract. The source quoted in, “Should You Believe the Trinity” (SYBTT) said that the Trinity was not taught in the O.T.. But SYBTT claimed the article said the Trinity was not taught in the Bible, both O.T and N.T. And the website called that “Satanic Quoting”

They over and over again likened Jesus to women who although being equal to men are inferior.

I think this statement is false! The website does not say any such thing!

Then they also like to point out that the Trinity of the Nicean creed is not the Trinity supposedly taught by the apostles.

I believe this is another false statement. Here is the link show us where the article makes this statement?

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-frames-start-page-SYBTT.htm

What else? Oh Yea! They liked to call the quotes from items like the Encyclopedia "Satanic"
Real mature discussion there!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I believe this statement is false also. What they said was “ In this column, down to the bottom, we will expose the satanic quoting practices of the Watchtower” This can be verified by clicking on this [link] and scrolling down to the first box in the right hand column. And the Satanic Quoting they are talking about is the SYBTT misquotes, quotes out-of-context, and even makes up quotes trying to support their false doctrine.

Notice all the quotes in the SYBTT they are full of ellipses, that is three or four dots like this . . .which indicates something omitted. The SYBTT regularly omits words in passages to make them appear to be saying the opposite of what the writer intended. The link is there, read it or don't, but if you are going to make reference to it at least have the integrity to quote it truthfully.

Shekinahs · Mar 29, 2004

To me there is the Divine. One divinity, one creator. Both male and female in traits but one. Both Father and Mother. Trinity to me is humanity's way of seeing God. Which is just fine IMO. I do not think the Trinity concept came from God but was the notion of humanity. IMO Trinity would be Father, Mother, Son. I know ....makes too much sense.

lared · Mar 29, 2004

Yes, a woman once told me that the trinity is: Jesus, Joseph, and Mary.

The trinity takes many forms.

happyinhisgrace · Mar 29, 2004

lared said:
My, my. Such anger and bitterness towards the Witnesses, such a small insignificant group of people.
Rather frightening.

What is frightening, the JW's, the statement that they are an insignifican group of people or the anger?

jessedance · Mar 29, 2004

xjws can be very bitter , esepcially if they have been kicked out.

lared · Mar 29, 2004

jessedance said:
xjws can be very bitter , esepcially if they have been kicked out.

Yes, they usually go on a nasty tirade against Witnesses, and yet are nowhere near as vocal about humongous religions that are contrary to their beliefs such as Islam, Hinduism, etc.

And they are usually evasive about the religion they now associate with, for fear it can be dissected as easily as they dissect Witnesses.

RufustheRed · Mar 29, 2004

lared said:
Yes, a woman once told me that the trinity is: Jesus, Joseph, and Mary.

The trinity takes many forms.

Once someone told me the moon was made of green cheese. What's you point!

Saulball · Mar 29, 2004

JESUS is FULLY GOD. He became a man, sure, and divested his majesty to become "a little lower than angels", but is now exalted.

Jesus claimed to be God = "before Abraham was I AM" this was equating himself with Jehovah

Isaiah said the messiah was God "for unto us a child is born, a son is given....and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" - how much more clear than this prophecy

John said "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God,(The expression of his love - God incarnate as a man) and was God, and became flesh and dwelt among us."

and he had a name on his Vesture and on his thigh "KING OF KINGS and LORD of LORDS" (who is the lord but God?) and his name is the WORD OF GOD...Jesus it the LORD of LORDS...He is God.

Quoting Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending, saith the LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to COME, the ALMIGHTY! (hello, this is Jesus speaking saying I AM THE LORD, the ALMIGHTY)

either Jesus is a liar, or he is God

He is referred to as "EMMANUEL" or GOD WITH US.

Either we are believers or lost sheep..."only by the spirit can we say Jesus is Lord (God, sovereign over all)"

True Believer · Mar 29, 2004

Der Alter said:
This is a misleading statement, just like the article from the JW tract. The source quoted in, Should You Believe the Trinity (SYBTT) said that the Trinity was not taught in the O.T.. But SYBTT claimed the article said the Trinity was not taught in the Bible, both O.T and N.T. And the website called that Satanic Quoting

misleading HUH! here is what the website answer to that very question is!
When the Watchtower says, "the concept of trinity is not taught in the Old Testament". They are right, but many concepts that are taught in the New Testament like trinity and the Lord's Supper, were also lacking in the Old Testament.

When the Watchtower says, "trinity is not EXPLICITY taught in the New Testament", they are right and all Trinitarians would agree! The key word is "explicit", for it means: "trinity, as defined in the Nicene or Athanasian creeds is not taught in the Bible.".

by der alter
I think this statement is false! The website does not say any such thing!

Sounds the same as calling me a liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus is coequal with the Father being the same class of uncreated being, but not equal (subordinate) with the Father in rank. JW's deliberately confuse these two important issues. A wife is coequal with her husband as a class of created being called "man", but no equal (subordinate) with her husband in rank. Eph 5:23

A wife is coequal with her husband as a class of created being called "man", but no equal (subordinate) with her husband in rank. Eph 5:23

this is used in different forms by the owners of the website stateing that wives are not equal to husbands

by der alter

I believe this is another false statement. Here is the link show us where the article makes this statement?

I think you called me a liar again!!!!!!!!!!!!

So let's see thats once calling me misleading and twice calling me a liar in just this one post and they wonder why I ignore you !

Notice all the quotes in the SYBTT they are full of ellipses, that is three or four dots like this . . .which indicates something omitted. The SYBTT regularly omits words in passages to make them appear to be saying the opposite of what the writer intended. The link is there, read it or don't, but if you are going to make reference to it at least have the integrity to quote it truthfully

The ellipses eliminate the conjecture or fill and just post the proof !
Example;
WT
And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."-New Catholic Encyclopedia.
Actual quote;
On the other hand, it is not, as already seen, directly and immediately word of God." .

Do you like it better with the phrase in there?
WT
And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."
site Answer;
So what, neither is the doctrine of the Lord's supper or that Jesus was the agent of creation!
Very unreasonable with no facts to disprove the Catholic Encyclopedia!!!!!!
Because the Lord's Supper and Jesus as a person were unknown to the Hebrew writers but the Word was known and also the Holy Spirit and yet they never taught a Trinity!!

lared · Mar 29, 2004

Sven1967 said:
Once someone told me the moon was made of green cheese. What's you point!

I stated my point.
The trinity takes many forms as one of the last posters expressed their viewpoint.

RufustheRed · Mar 30, 2004

lared said:
I stated my point.
The trinity takes many forms as one of the last posters expressed their viewpoint.

So you take each and every individual's concept of the trinity to prove that you're correct? Okay. I proclaim the Bible is rife with passages to prove the Triune God which consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirt, who are co-equal and inseperable. Now you can mark do that someone told you that. Because someone stated that Jesus, Joseph and Mary are the trinity does not make that a fact. It means that person is mistaken. If you believe everything someone tells you then I have some prime property to sell you.

If you take away one side of a triangle, what do you have? Is it a triangle? Are any of these three lines required to make it a triangle?

I never did hear how many mighty gods the JWs believe exist.

Sven

jessedance · Mar 30, 2004

actually jws, in my opinion, aren't monthiestic. jesus is a demigod or half god and jehovah is a full fledged god. that adds up to 1 1/2 Gods. so actually JWs are half trinitarian 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 3 = 1

lared · Mar 30, 2004

Sven1967 said:
So you take each and every individual's concept of the trinity to prove that you're correct?

Sven

I wasn't trying to prove that I was correct. I was merely sharing an experience that I had. And that this indicated to me, that there are different concepts to the trinity.
Why in fact, I told this woman, that that is not what her church teaches (because she told me what religion she was affiliated with) and she got upset with me and said, "Yes, it does!"
I told her to have a good day.

jessedance · Mar 30, 2004

either Jesus is a liar, or he is God

You left out a 3rd posiblilty. you are misinterpreting scriptures.

and the Word was with God,

The bible says God is love, so do you think god is the emotion love.? the bible says love is kind. so do you think love is literally kind. doesnt rather love qualify god, and kind qualify love? is it so unreasonable that God qualifys word also? I mean god empowers his word and makes it happen. can';t you consider this as a possiblility? if you adamantly insist that God has to be the word , then shouldn't you like wise adamantly insist that god is the emotion love?
shouldn't you likewise adamantly insist that God is kind and the word is kind and kind became flesh?
if you adamantly insist that god is the word because the bible says, and the word was god, then you should like wise insist that god is love and love is kind and since the word became flesh then kind which is love which is god which is word also became flesh. if you follow your reasoning all the way through this is what you end up with , KInd became flesh.

Shekinahs · Mar 30, 2004

lared said:
I wasn't trying to prove that I was correct. I was merely sharing an experience that I had. And that this indicated to me, that there are different concepts to the trinity.

The idea of the Trinity is a doctrine. There is a whole history of how this came about.

True Believer · Mar 30, 2004

jessedance said:
actually jws, in my opinion, aren't monthiestic. jesus is a demigod or half god and jehovah is a full fledged god. that adds up to 1 1/2 Gods. so actually JWs are half trinitarian 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 3 = 1

No we believe in only Jehovah as God. I believe that when Jehovah hands the kingdom over to Jesus to rule he will then be a mighty god as the scriptures say , because his Father who is God almighty says so.

True Believer · Mar 30, 2004

Shekinahs said:
The idea of the Trinity is a doctrine. There is a whole history of how this came about.

I agree with you but the tinitarians won't. Thgey believe it always existed even though no OT writers spoke of it and they can only come up with it by linking different scriptures to come up with a man made doctrine. There is not one single scripture that supports the tinity in it's entirety!

Shekinahs · Mar 30, 2004

True Believer said:
I agree with you but the tinitarians won't. Thgey believe it always existed even though no OT writers spoke of it and they can only come up with it by linking different scriptures to come up with a man made doctrine. There is not one single scripture that supports the tinity in it's entirety!

I believe religion evolves and humanity evoles. Religion reflects the philosophy of the day. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I have no problems with the Trinity concept. I think the Divine has many aspects. I do not think people are wrong for the Trinity belief. I have more of a duality view really. I think there is the Divine and then the Divine nature of Jesus. The Holy Spirit IS God. Not seperate from God. God IS spirit. God IS the spirit that is Holy. Just like I have a mind, body and spirit. I'm not a walking trinity concept, I am just one. And I feel the same about God and the Holy Spirit. The spirit is part of God.

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