Trinity, Semi-Arian, Modalist Differences and similarities

[RC_NewProtestants]

From page 4-5 of the Thread about the Traditional/Progressive Split.

First TrustandObey's views.

The Trinity (part one of my view)

I have never really written down my view of the Trinity in one neat little document, so now that I’m being accused of not adhering to the fundamental beliefs of my church, I guess it’s time that I do.

And hey, for the record, I’ll send this in an e-mail to my pastor and let him tell me if I should be kicked out of my church after he reads it. Ironically I already did discuss this with him, before my baptism, and he agreed that I do adhere to the teachings of the Adventist church....but I’ll do it to appease you RC, since you are my accuser.

Having not ever pulled all my notes together, I have a feeling I might get off-track a little while I talk about my view, so I’ll apologize in advance. I’m also getting ready for the cable guy to come tomorrow, so I can’t just sit here and give this my full attention right now.

I took notes when I read the bible the first time, and I would come to a certain conclusion with my limited human knowledge, and through prayer I would come to a different conclusion later. I’m not saying that what I say here today isn’t subject to change. I’m still learning just like everybody else is, and I pray for wisdom and understanding from my Teacher all the time.

God isn’t done with me yet. Not by a long shot.

The big difference between what I believe and what others seem to believe is I believe Jesus really did DIE for my sins, for your sins, and for the sins of the world. I believe a sinless Man paid a ransom for my very soul, and He died in order to do that.

I believe He was absolutely DEAD for three days and that was the only way He would’ve been able to “conquer death” as scripture states He did.

Did God the Father die for three days? No, He did not. Did the Holy Spirit die for three days? No, He did not.

The resurrection is attributed to every Person (I use the term “Person” for lack of a better word) in the Trinity, but Acts 2:24 says “Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.”

Jesus was dead, so *I* believe that verse is referring to God the Father...through His Holy Spirit. Could Jesus have raised Himself from the grave? I believe that’s possible too, because Jesus never sinned. Lack of sin equals righteousness, but does it equal Divinity?

I guess that question is directly related to the resurrection of the last day (so I’ll try to remember to touch upon that later).

God the Father cannot die. He alone has immortality (1 Tim 6:16)...and that would include His Spirit. The HOLY Spirit.

I too, believe that Jesus is God. I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe every human being on this planet was made in THEIR image and I do believe that Jesus created the world and was with God the Father from the very beginning (that’s where Maco and I seem to differ).

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But how could Jesus die? (part two)

Why didn’t Jesus just “appear” on this earth and meet all the criteria the Jews thought they were looking for? Why was He born of a woman at all?

Jesus GAVE UP immortality to come to this earth. That’s obvious to me, or He couldn’t have died. By not having immortality He was also subjecting Himself to corruption, which is also obvious to me when I read scripture.

I think it’s totally discounting His sacrifice to say He “didn’t really die” or that He “couldn’t die”. To say that is to agree with satan’s very first lie in scripture.

*I* believe that Jesus felt every bit of the pain we would’ve felt if a crown of thorns had been smashed into our scalps, and if we had been beaten. I also believe He felt ALL the shame we would’ve felt if we were being mocked, but instead of seeking vengeance like we would, Christ knew God the Father had claimed vengeance as His Own, and Christ did things like heal the servant’s ear instead.

And I believe He really did DIE.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is the Son of God, but it also tells us that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, so there is absolutely no denying that God’s Spirit is an extension of Himself, just like ours is, only His Spirit is Holy. It’s every bit a part of Him as our spirits are a part of us. We are made in that image.

In Revelation we’re told “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Not just faith IN Jesus, but the faith OF Jesus.

If Jesus was God the Father, what did He have faith IN? Who? Or What? How do we KEEP the faith of Jesus? It’s obviously a very important thing to know, right?

Why did Jesus refer to God the Father as “My God and your God”?

He had faith in the resurrection, of being raised immortal and never having to die again. He also had faith in the Father, a merciful God....His God and our God. Jesus knew that the resurrection was assured and we should absolutely have faith in the same things He did.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Again, it doesn’t say faith IN Jesus Christ; it refers to the faith OF Jesus Christ.

If our faith in God the Father were like Jesus’ was while on this earth, I have absolutely no doubt that we could heal, raise the dead, and feed starving villages with the touch of a hand. I do not, however, believe that we could raise ourselves from the dead...that requires a Divinity that we just cannot claim until we are raised on the last day.

When I hear someone say that Jesus was totally incapable of sinning or that He was absolutely Divine while living on this earth, I always think about the temptation in the wilderness.

Mark 1:13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Temptation....was satan’s attempt to test Jesus an absolute futile attempt that he (satan) knew he couldn’t win, or was it really possible that Jesus COULD have sinned but proved we do not HAVE to?


I also think about Him crying when He knew Lazarus was dead. He FELT the suffering of Lazarus’ family. Not just THEIR suffering, but His own. Even though Christ knew that He was going to resurrect Lazarus very shortly, He felt the pain that you and I feel when we lose someone to death. He could’ve waited until the last day to resurrect Lazarus, but He didn’t.

For the wages of sin is death. It’s our enemy. Sin and death are our ENEMY.

Christ KNEW the beauty of heaven, but He raised Lazarus back onto this earth anyway. Why? Because through absolute faith in God the Father, He COULD.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

To be like Christ (part three)

There’s a story in scripture about a young woman that dies, and Jesus brought her back to life. Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and He commanded to give her meat.

HER spirit came again. Was she immortal after that? Scripture is silent about it, but I feel that she was not made immortal that day. She received her own spirit back into her own body (which wasn’t glorified). I believe she went on to die again, just like the many saints that Jesus resurrected after He was resurrected.

I believe the resurrection at the last day is different because we will receive HIS spirit; us receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming immortal ourselves. If our spirits are to become holy, sin will never rise again.

Can we receive the Holy Spirit now, before the resurrection of the last day, absolutely. We can also ignore the Holy Spirit as well, and that’s really not keeping the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Why is Jesus our redemption (Romans 3:24)? Jesus came to this earth and proved that you really can live a life free of sin. We do NOT have to sin.

He never sinned once. Why would His NOT sinning be such a big deal if He had an advantage over any one of us or if He had been incapable of sinning from the very beginning of His human experience here?

The wages for sin is death. That is a promise. He didn’t sin, but He died anyway, RC. THAT is the sacrifice scripture tells us about, and THAT is the sacrifice that gave us the promise of eternal life by merely accepting that wonderful gift.

It is my firm belief that Jesus sustained a life on this earth through total faith in God the Father. I don’t think Him not sinning had a THING to do with not being able to sin, but because He knew He couldn’t be shaken if God and His angels were with Him those forty days. He had FAITH, and He quoted God’s word in response to every one of satan’s accusations.

God’s Holy Spirit led Jesus TO the wilderness and God the Father’s Spirit led Him THROUGH the wilderness. If we had that kind of faith, to follow where we’re led no matter how scary it is, there is absolutely no evil thing that could penetrate our lives either.

So when I read scripture and I read about the faith OF Jesus Christ, I feel that I need to have faith that God will give me the power to heal all wounds, I should have faith that we will FINALLY get to see the devil get his due and all wrongs will be avenged by GOD, not myself. I should have faith in the resurrection, and the gift of salvation, and the reward of heaven (among other things)..

Jesus told us what to have faith in. He told us several times. He also told us that God the Father would never keep those things from us if we prayed for them in His name. The faith that can move mountains.

Did the disciples have faith that Jesus would raise Himself out of the grave or did they have faith that His God would raise Him up? I don’t know, but I do know Jesus told one person this:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Jesus' God (part four)

Jesus called THAT God “MY God and your God”. He was NOT speaking of Himself and even states that as plain as day.

I believe they are One. Just like a husband and wife are one. The Trinity is a unity of three co-eternal Persons.

Isn’t that what our fundamental belief says TOO?

Does our fundamental belief not list the three co-eternal Persons separately and list their different ROLES? Yes, it does.

Just like my husband and I, those co-eternal Persons have separate roles but They also have the same purpose. They are One in the exact same sense that my husband and I are.

God the Father is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. JESUS is the Lord of the living AND the dead.

God the Father handed judgment over to the Son after the Son experienced life on THIS earth.

Different roles. Same purpose.

Scripture also talks about one baptism....then scripture goes on to talk about baptism by immersion in water, and baptism of the Holy Spirit. Which one do you think the thief on the cross received?

I recognize the symbology of “one” in scripture, and I feel it applies every bit as much to the Trinity as it does to my husband and I or to baptism. If a person wasn’t able to be baptized by immersion, I know they were still able to be baptized by the Holy Spirit...and the purpose (meaning) is the same.

You emphasized what I said about Jesus not always being co-eternal, and I think I explained what I meant by that earlier. I believe He gave up immortality to live on this earth surrounded by sin to set an example and to save us from that sin.

I’ve been distracted a lot while typing this up so I hope I made myself somewhat clear. I believe that Jesus was resurrected and received a glorified body and immortality. Yes, our Savior is now and forever eternal, and every bit as equal to God the Father.

I also think if we hold onto sins that we love on this earth and do not repent of them, heaven would be a miserable place for us.

And that, in a nutshell, is my view.

~Lainie (sinner)

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

ADD-ON Dangers of the Trinity doctrine taught by most.....

Have you ever noticed that even though people repeatedly say "Jesus is God", they feel He had a different set of commandments than the ones His Father gave us?

They have to believe the Father and Son are one and the exact same in order to come to that conclusion...that one set would supercede the other.

Jesus obeyed the Father's commandments and told us to as well.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I did not read anything in your views which reflect upon the earlier statement you made.

I believe that Jesus is co-eternal NOW but wasn't always. Our fundamental belief in no way says otherwise.
http://www.christianforums.com/showp...8&postcount=50

Maco, the belief in the trinity does appear to have some scriptural backing, although line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....I do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, so I agree with you.
http://www.christianforums.com/showp...4&postcount=69

The concept of God is that He is the uncaused cause, eternal from everlasting to everlasting. You said Jesus was not co-eternal at one time please explain that statement?

You have stated that God is made of multiple persons who are not the same substance, if they were the same substance you could not say one is not equal with another, so that that the one is purpose rather then substance. All the gods on Olympus could then be said to be One because they all had the same purpose depending of course on how one defines their purpose. For instance they all have the same purpose in acting as gods over humanity. This is completely contrary to the Shema, which is "God is One" which is the statement of a monotheistic religion. Remember of course the Old Testament also talks of the Spirit of God yet it the Jewish faith did not view the Spirit of God as a separate God.

So before we examine Trust's observations about Jesus we need to flesh out her understanding of the Son as God, not equal with God the Father and not co-eternal at least at some point in time not being eternal.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

A number of good articles dealing with the Adventist history and Trinitarian, Semi-arian doctrines.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/index.htm

By the early 1930's the term Trinity was included in the official Seventh-day Adventist statement of beliefs. This was reiterated and expanded in the 1980 Statement of Beliefs and remains a core part of Adventist doctrine. Recent agitation on the topic comes both from a few within Adventism and from critics outside of Adventism who find support for their accusations in the writings of the interior critics who, in turn, support their positions on selected historical SDA writers.
We examine some of this history and its theological implications, as well as some other topics having to do with the nature of Christ and related issues. We note at the outset that, so far as we can determine, all Adventists do believe in the full and complete divinity of Jesus Christ.

 

[TrustAndObey]

RC, I appreciate you not putting my name in the thread title (seriously) because it tends to attract my stalker person.

The concept of God is that He is the uncaused cause, eternal from everlasting to everlasting. You said Jesus was not co-eternal at one time please explain that statement?

I did explain that. I believe Jesus gave up immortality to come to this earth and save us.

After His resurrection He received His glorified body and immortality just like we will. He had faith in that promise.

I'm still really busy so I'll have to come back a little later.

In the meantime, can someone show me where our fundamental belief says that Jesus is God the Father.

Also, could you show me where EGW said that?

Thanks and God's many blessings to all,
~Lainie

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I did explain that. I believe Jesus gave up immortality to come to this earth and save us.

After His resurrection He received His glorified body and immortality just like we will. He had faith in that promise.

So you agree that pre-incarnate Jesus was forever, was God from all eternity who was always existent. The only reason that the pre-incarnate Jesus is not in your opinion equal to the Father is because He gave up immortality for a short time and then was raised from the dead and given immortality by God the Father.

I am sure you recall my post of the Ellen White quote that said that divinity did not die on the cross. Do you disagree with her statement.

Youth Instructor.1898-08-04.002 "I am the resurrection, and the life." He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In his divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that he has life in himself to quicken whom he will.

All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God. However able and talented, however large their capacities, they are replenished with life from the source of all life. He is the spring, the fountain, of life. Only he who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light and life, could say, "I have power to lay down my life, and I have power to take it again."

Then we have the philosophical problem, can God cease to be God? If God is defined as immortal can He ever die? Of course there could not be an answer to that question but we could ask a similar question which we might find easier to answer. Can God sin? If our definition is that God is perfectly righteous then the answer is that He can't sin. Of course if it is because of God's nature that He only does right then we can say that He can't sin because He can't go against what He is.

With that idea in mind can God cease to be immortal? If it is his nature to be immortal then He cannot go against His nature any more by ceasing to be immortal then He can go against His nature to sin.

We can then deal with the idea that Jesus could have sinned but for now just remember that the Greek word for tempted is also the same word for tested.

 

[TrustAndObey]

So you agree that pre-incarnate Jesus was forever, was God from all eternity who was always existent. The only reason that the pre-incarnate Jesus is not in your opinion equal to the Father is because He gave up immortality for a short time and then was raised from the dead and given immortality by God the Father.

Absolutely I believe in pre-incarnate Christ.

To live on this earth, He was born of a woman. Half of Him was instantly less than God the Father. He talked about obeying God. Which part of Him obeyed God? If one part WAS God, which part of Him obeyed God?

I am sure you recall my post of the Ellen White quote that said that divinity did not die on the cross. Do you disagree with her statement.

Is that a question?

Then we have the philosophical problem, can God cease to be God? If God is defined as immortal can He ever die? Of course there could not be an answer to that question but we could ask a similar question which we might find easier to answer. Can God sin? If our definition is that God is perfectly righteous then the answer is that He can't sin. Of course if it is because of God's nature that He only does right then we can say that He can't sin because He can't go against what He is.

I would say Jesus is our only example, and He was the only One of the Trinity that was born of human flesh.

With that idea in mind can God cease to be immortal? If it is his nature to be immortal then He cannot go against His nature any more by ceasing to be immortal then He can go against His nature to sin.

Half of His nature while on earth was of MAN. He called Himself the Son of Man.

We can then deal with the idea that Jesus could have sinned but for now just remember that the Greek word for tempted is also the same word for tested.

Did you read my posts RC? I said the same thing.

Sorry that was such a short response, I'm swamped right now.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Yes a short and really inadequate response. Please try again. And yes that was a question, I forgot the question mark it appears.

To help you get started on your answer. I understand you believe in a pre-incarnate Christ, so do the Arians and Semi Arians. What we need to determine is how you define Him, as God equally and fully God or something else, a subservient God or a demigod or a God that was brought forth by another God.

To live on this earth, He was born of a woman. Half of Him was instantly less than God the Father. He talked about obeying God. Which part of Him obeyed God? If one part WAS God, which part of Him obeyed God?

Does not particularly matter it would seem to me. The Divine part of Christ would act in accordance with God in any case because that is God's nature and the human part acted under the direction of the Divine nature.Only if human nature was stronger or more dominant then the Divine nature could human nature gain control. And if that were the case then we would all be without hope.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Yes a short and really inadequate response. Please try again.

You know what? I think I'll pass.

I don't think this is an attempt to peak into the my theological thinking, I think it's more of an attempt to try to ban me from posting in the Traditional section.

To help you get started on your answer. I understand you believe in a pre-incarnate Christ, so do the Arians and Semi Arians. What we need to determine is how you define Him, as God equally and fully God or something else, a subservient God or a demigod or a God that was brought forth by another God.

This statement is exactly why I don't feel the need to continue my discussion with you RC. "To help you get started on your answer."

If it's my answer, why would I need YOUR help brother?

Does not particularly matter it would seem to me. The Divine part of Christ would act in accordance with God in any case because that is God's nature and the human part acted under the direction of the Divine nature.Only if human nature was stronger or more dominant then the Divine nature could human nature gain control. And if that were the case then we would all be without hope.

Okay, so Jesus really DIDN'T die for my sins and He DIDN'T ask God to take the cup from Him.

Gotcha.

 

[StormyOne]

You know what? I think I'll pass.

I don't think this is an attempt to peak into the my theological thinking, I think it's more of an attempt to try to ban me from posting in the Traditional section.



This statement is exactly why I don't feel the need to continue my discussion with you RC. "To help you get started on your answer."

If it's my answer, why would I need YOUR help brother?



Okay, so Jesus really DIDN'T die for my sins and He DIDN'T ask God to take the cup from Him.

Gotcha.

ahhhh...... afraid that your answers might incriminate and lead to your being excluded..... that is interesting...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

You know what? I think I'll pass.

I don't think this is an attempt to peak into the my theological thinking, I think it's more of an attempt to try to ban me from posting in the Traditional section.

You would thinking incorrectly if you thought that as the traditional section has not even created their rules yet. Even so if you really did agree with the 28 on this subject this would be the place to clear up any doubt. If you recall I said that basing the traditional section on the idea of acceptance of the 28 fundamentals was not a good idea as there is a good sized group of historic/traditions who are very anti-trinitarian. And we know that a very good proportion of early Adventists were also very anti trinitarian.

This statement is exactly why I don't feel the need to continue my discussion with you RC. "To help you get started on your answer."

If it's my answer, why would I need YOUR help brother?

My statement simply expanded on the previous question, I was trying to show that I wanted more specifics then merely a statement that you believed in a pre-incarnate Christ.

Okay, so Jesus really DIDN'T die for my sins and He DIDN'T ask God to take the cup from Him.

Gotcha.

Where did you get that from, very clearly He died but do your really think people can kill divinity by crucifying a human body? As a man Jesus died, and in the Gospel he showed the marks of the crucifixion upon His body. But that is far different from the death of divinity.

I hope reddogs is reading this to see that this is not nitpicking that the ideas of Jesus impact our whole system of belief. The nature of God and the nature of atonement and upon those two things all our theological concepts are built.

If Jesus was not fully God then we still don't have a real representation of the character of God. If divinity had to die to save mankind why would that be who would demand that divinity die and what would the death of divinity accomplish (aside from the way we would have redefine the meaning of God if God was not immortal).

I am not saying that any view of God is a salvation issue, God can save anyone who has faith in God whether they Jesus is a God, demigod, or one of many Gods. Salvation is God's gift not mine, but as ambassadors of God we have to present a reasonable explanation and we need to present it as best we can and as accurately as we can. Because the more accurate we are I am certain the better it will make God appear to humanity. The post modern world is also the post Christian world and the old traditions just won't work anymore.

 

[TrustAndObey]

RC, I told you several times yesterday that I was side-tracked and had to get things done for the cable guy coming today.

In the midst of cleaning behind entertainment centers, my youngest son decided to bring a squeeze bottle of mustard into my room (for his veggie corn dog) and watch television.

He forgot it was beside him and stepped on it when he was getting up.

So on top of everything else, I had to clean mustard off my walls, off the carpet, off of HIM and his shoes, and off my ceiling even.

I told you repeatedly that I was swamped and that I wouldn't have a lot of time to respond and I still don't.

The guy is coming later today.

Here is our church's fundamental belief on this subject:

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

AMEN!

Now those THREE co-eternal Persons are listed separately:

3. Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

AMEN!

4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

AMEN!

5. Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

AMEN!

And that's how I feel about that!

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So you no longer believe your previous statements. that Jesus was not always co-eternal and that Jesus is not equal with the Father. because the fundamentals you have just said amen to, say that Jesus is co-eternal and fully God. And as the quote from Ellen White showed the Adventist belief is also that divinity did not die on the cross.

 

[TrustAndObey]

That's a funny thing about the belief as it is worded.

It talks about Jesus NOW and then talks about Jesus as fully man "He became also fully man"....so I still say AMEN! It doesn't say a thing about his co-eternalness when it talks about Him being fully man.

Words have meanings, but the way words are laid out have meaning too, and I absolkutely 100% say AMEN to our fundamental belief as it is listed.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

That's a funny thing about the belief as it is worded.

It talks about Jesus NOW and then talks about Jesus as fully man "He became also fully man"....so I still say AMEN! It doesn't say a thing about his co-eternalness when it talks about Him being fully man.

Words have meanings, but the way words are laid out have meaning too, and I absolkutely 100% say AMEN to our fundamental belief as it is listed.

Ok but Jesus being fully man was not the question asked.

And yes it does talk about his being eternal before the incarnation. Eternal does not cease because he became "God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ" further the statement says that He was truly God and also became man. "Forever truly God, He became also truly man..." That "also" indicates that He did not cease to be truly God even though He was a man.

I get the sense that you are afraid to express your beliefs. I am sorry for that, it is a tragedy that any church makes people afraid to express their beliefs about God. It is the reason I have along with others here fought for an open forum and free discussion.

 

[StormyOne]

Ok but Jesus being fully man was not the question asked.

I get the sense that you are afraid to express your beliefs. I am sorry for that, it is a tragedy that any church makes people afraid to express their beliefs about God. It is the reason I have along with others here fought for an open forum and free discussion.

good observation...

 

[TrustAndObey]

Ok but Jesus being fully man was not the question asked.

And yes it does talk about his being eternal before the incarnation. Eternal does not cease because he became "God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ" further the statement says that He was truly God and also became man. "Forever truly God, He became also truly man..." That "also" indicates that He did not cease to be truly God even though He was a man.

The fullness of God dwelled within Him. That doesn't say He WAS God the Father while He was here on this earth.

That's what people keep telling me...that Jesus IS God the Father (not just God the Son). Usually when they tell me this it's about the time they tell me that when Jesus gave the "new" commandments they were to REPLACE the "old" ones.

I get the sense that you are afraid to express your beliefs. I am sorry for that, it is a tragedy that any church makes people afraid to express their beliefs about God. It is the reason I have along with others here fought for an open forum and free discussion.

Your sense is way off on this one RC.

If I was afraid to express my beliefs, why in the world would I type up so many posts filled with what I believe?

I stuck my theological neck WAY out there on this subject, knowing the scrutiny that I might (and have) face(d) for what I believe.

Your comment doesn't even make SENSE. People that are afraid to express what they believe, DON'T discuss it. I most certainly have.

In reality, from past conversations we've had, I already know you think I'm ignorant, so any hesitation you might be "sensing" would be because of that alone. I guess I have never perceived you as someone that really wants to know what I believe. I see you more as someone that would like to ridicule what I believe.

So if I'm wrong RC, and I hope I am, I really am sorry.

I try not to judge people on one comment and allow everyone the occasional "bad day" snipe...and I did witness a side of you I had never seen before in the wiki. A side I liked.

I guess I just don't see the need to spill my guts to you when I have every right to be guarded from past experiences with you.

I typed it out, do with it as you wish, interpret it how you may. It's how I feel.