Trinity Doctrines

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

the.Sheepdog · Jun 2, 2009

um, becaue I am a born again Christian and I subscribe to this creed, as does CF and this is the requirement to wear a Christian icon here:

CF supports the following as a statement of faith:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

A creed is not a doctrine. For instance, my doctrine about the Trinity is that I believe it, find little scriptural support for it, therefore conclude that although true, it's importance is far over stated.

ydouxist · Jun 2, 2009

BenAdam said:
Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

Yes.

We are Body, Soul, and Spirit.
Not until we are born again does our Spirit come alive.
The body is a vessel.
The soul is our emotions.
The Spirit is what communes with God.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

ydouxist said:
Yes.

We are Body, Soul, and Spirit.
Not until we are born again does our Spirit come alive.
The body is a vessel.
The soul is our emotions.
The Spirit is what communes with God.

Sorry my friend but man is not Trinitarian. Modalism may be a better discription for how man is (but not quite). God (in Trinitarian doctrine) exists as 3 seperate persons. God's body isn't Jesus, His soul isn't the Father.

JimB · Jun 2, 2009

BenAdam said:
Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

The doctrine of the Trinity seems to be so entrenched in church creeds, at least since Nicea (325 AD), that you would not even be classified Christian unless you believe in it (I think this is true even here at CF). The problem with this is that the doctrine is not explicitly stated in scripture, only implicitly inferred. Except for 1 John 5.7b-8, which is a passage that is debatable since the verse only appears in late (post-Nicene) manuscripts and not in earlier ones (see footnotes at link), there is no clear statement of the Trinity, causing some translators to suspect that the passage in First John was not in the original MSS but was a later addition, possibly a marginal note, added after Nicea to bolster the Nicene Trinitarian position.

Personally, I believe in the Trinity, but with the reservation that it is not a full picture of God. Trinity is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in terms that we can most readily grasp. But to say that the Trinity is a full picture of the Almighty would, IMO, be wrong. You cant stuff the Almighty into a box, even a three-cornered one.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

cyberlizard · Jun 2, 2009

technically, the Nicene creed does not enforce a trinitarian position, and strangely enough prior to the Constantine (father and sons) fiasco, the dominant position was not trinitarianism in its athanasian form, but sabellianism (not excluding modalistic forms).

Steve

pdudgeon · Jun 2, 2009

Why do you believe in the Trinity?

because that is the way that God operates
because there is scriptural support for it
because Jesus acknowledged it

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

cyberlizard said:
technically, the Nicene creed does not enforce a trinitarian position, and strangely enough prior to the Constantine (father and sons) fiasco, the dominant position was not trinitarianism in its athanasian form, but sabellianism (not excluding modalistic forms).

Steve

I wouldn't quite say that dominant positions were non-trinitarian, however they were much more strongly supported than today by orders of magnitude.

But alas, this is for discussing Trinitarian doctrines, not non-trinitarian ones.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

pdudgeon said:
because that is the way that God operates
because there is scriptural support for it
because Jesus acknowledged it

Could you please elaborate? Not looking for debate but to see what others view as support.

cyberlizard · Jun 2, 2009

come on... most people have never even read the creed which defines what the trinity even is...

for those who have never read it... do so.... the athanasian creed. See if you agree with it. Most people I have discussed it with have some strong reservations about some of its language.

Steve

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

cyberlizard said:
come on... most people have never even read the creed which defines what the trinity even is...

for those who have never read it... do so.... the athanasian creed. See if you agree with it. Most people I have discussed it with have some strong reservations about some of its language.

Steve

Ok thread not about creeds, but Trinity Doctrines which although influced by creeds are not creeds.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

Jimbeaux said:
The doctrine of the Trinity seems to be so entrenched in church creeds, at least since Nicea (325 AD), that you would not even be classified Christian unless you believe in it (I think this is true even here at CF). The problem with this is that the doctrine is not explicitly stated in scripture, only implicitly inferred. Except for 1 John 5.7b-8, which is a passage that is debatable since the verse only appears in late (post-Nicene) manuscripts and not in earlier ones (see footnotes at link), there is no clear statement of the Trinity, causing some translators to suspect that the passage in First John was not in the original MSS but was a later addition, possibly a marginal note, added after Nicea to bolster the Nicene Trinitarian position.

Personally, I believe in the Trinity, but with the reservation that it is not a full picture of God. Trinity is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in terms that we can most readily grasp. But to say that the Trinity is a full picture of the Almighty would, IMO, be wrong. You cant stuff the Almighty into a box, even a three-cornered one.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

I am pretty much in full agreement with you, although the Comma Johanneum is debatable I do tend to believe that it's inclusion or exclusion does little to change the overall picture presented in scripture.

imperfectchristian · Jun 2, 2009

Jimbeaux said:
The doctrine of the Trinity seems to be so entrenched in church creeds, at least since Nicea (325 AD), that you would not even be classified Christian unless you believe in it (I think this is true even here at CF). The problem with this is that the doctrine is not explicitly stated in scripture, only implicitly inferred. Except for 1 John 5.7b-8, which is a passage that is debatable since the verse only appears in late (post-Nicene) manuscripts and not in earlier ones (see footnotes at link), there is no clear statement of the Trinity, causing some translators to suspect that the passage in First John was not in the original MSS but was a later addition, possibly a marginal note, added after Nicea to bolster the Nicene Trinitarian position.

Personally, I believe in the Trinity, but with the reservation that it is not a full picture of God. Trinity is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in terms that we can most readily grasp. But to say that the Trinity is a full picture of the Almighty would, IMO, be wrong. You cant stuff the Almighty into a box, even a three-cornered one.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

A most excellent post and I totally 100% agree. The major problem with not only this subject matter, but with religion itself is that it tends to try and put God in a box and then carry Him around and say "see, look in here...this is God"

It doesn't work that way.

imperfectchristian · Jun 2, 2009

cyberlizard said:
technically, the Nicene creed does not enforce a trinitarian position, and strangely enough prior to the Constantine (father and sons) fiasco, the dominant position was not trinitarianism in its athanasian form, but sabellianism (not excluding modalistic forms).

Steve

Good post! The primary goal of the Nicene Creed was to establish orthodoxy on Jesus being fully God and fully man. That was the debate of the day.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

The subject of the Trinity being true or not is not open to debate. To post in these areas one must hold to the Nicean Creed.

imperfectchristian · Jun 2, 2009

pdudgeon · Jun 2, 2009

BenAdam said:
Could you please elaborate? Not looking for debate but to see what others view as support.

i'll try.

in Genesis at the creation, chapter 1, verse 26 where man was created is the first time that i see God refered to in the plural, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves....."

and again in John 1:1-5 "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God and he was God. He was in the beginning with God. He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make. Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone. The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it."

and in John 1:32-34 "then John said, "I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. I didn't know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, He told me, "When you see the Holy Spirit descending and resting upon someone, he is the one you are looking for. He is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit". I saw this happen to Jesus, so i testify that he is the Son of God.

and in John 6:38-40 "for I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do what i want. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those He has given me, but that I should raise them to eternal life at the last day. For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life--that I should raise them at the last day."

and in John 6:61-63 "Jesus knew within himself that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, "Does this offend you? then what will you think if you see me, the Son of Man, return to heaven again? It is the Spirit who gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

if you take these verses together i believe that it shows the trinitarian nature of God as well as the purpose of each of the three parts of the trinity.

there are more, but this should give you a start. thanks for asking.

BenAdam · Jun 2, 2009

No those are excellent. In fact I find John Chapter 1 and Genesis Chapter 1 to be the strongest support for the doctrine.

Questioning Christian · Jun 2, 2009

I don't have time at the moment to do a full dissertation on why I believe God has three parts to his one being, all of whom He is, but I can give a Reader's Digest version of my reasons for believing that God is triune.

1. God said in the beginning, "Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness."

2. The word translated "God" in the book of Genesis is Elohim, which is a uniplural noun, one word describing plurality of being.

3. The baptism of Jesus represented three Persons, the Person being baptized, the Person who boomed down from heaven "this is my son", and the Person who descended upon Jesus.

4. Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

5. God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost. [Acts 10:38]

Then there's I John 5:7 which states, "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one", and although the authenticity of this scripture is disputed, it is wholly consistent with all the other statements concerning the triune God.

But I don't argue with my Oneness brothers and sisters.

When they want to argue about the Trinity, which seems to be their entire raison d'etre [in their mind], I just tell them THIS:

"You say 'one dime', and I say 'two nickels', but the whole point is ten cents."

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