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Are you seriously arguing that Christianity did not exist until the 4th century? I don't know if there are any serious historians (Christian, Jewish, or otherwise) who take that view.It is more than likely that the trinity entered the picture together with the rest of the religion during Constantinian 4th century, the century of which scholars speak so regularly and the century of the apologists, under a new regime that had the means, motive opportunity to establish a new religion that did not exist previously.
It is more than likely that the trinity entered the picture together with the rest of the religion during Constantinian 4th century, the century of which scholars speak so regularly and the century of the apologists, under a new regime that had the means, motive opportunity to establish a new religion that did not exist previously.
Ironically even the most secular scholars (I didn't say all) hold fast to the traditional Church narrative of the emergence of Christianity without demanding the same rigorous critical analysis they demand in other areas of historical research. They do not demand rigor for corroborative and empirical evidence for the existence of any of the NT figures, or even people such as Marcion. Indeed whenever it is said that Marcion collected the epistles and wrote his own gospel of Luke, no one demands to have evidence for this collection or gospel, or for the claim that his father was a "bishop." But that's only the tip of the iceberg. No one points to the fact that the Dialog of Justin Martyr based on a single manuscript from a 14th century monastery and is actually only a monologue, even explains in his appeals to the emperor his origins, or the location of alleged Christian communities in the second century.Are you seriously arguing that Christianity did not exist until the 4th century? I don't know if there are any serious historians (Christian, Jewish, or otherwise) who take that view.
I'm curious how Christianity supposedly didn't exist until the 4th century when we have a fragment of John's Gospel that dates to the early to mid 2nd century (it's known as the p52 manuscript). And most consider John to be the last of the Gospels written. Add to this that most consider Paul's writings to predate all the Gospels. So, we should think that Constantine invented what existed a couple centuries before he did? Really?It is more than likely that the trinity entered the picture together with the rest of the religion during Constantinian 4th century
Well, for those of us without hundreds of hours of free time on our hands to do this research ourselves, I think most of us would defer to people who specialize in those matters rather than ceding to skepticism by an unknown person on a web forum (this person being you of course).Ironically even the most secular scholars (I didn't say all) hold fast to the traditional Church narrative of the emergence of Christianity without demanding the same rigorous critical analysis they demand in other areas of historical research. They do not demand rigor for corroborative and empirical evidence for the existence of any of the NT figures, or even people such as Marcion. Indeed whenever it is said that Marcion collected the epistles and wrote his own gospel of Luke, no one demands to have evidence for this collection or gospel, or for the claim that his father was a "bishop." But that's only the tip of the iceberg. No one points to the fact that the Dialog of Justin Martyr based on a single manuscript from a 14th century monastery and is actually only a monologue, even explains in his appeals to the emperor his origins, or the location of alleged Christian communities in the second century.
Ah, yes, you must be correct and the vast majority of professional scholarship on the subject is wrong. Thanks for setting us straight.We both know that carbon dating is never precise. And certainly a fragment cannot establish an entire history. Furthermore, thrre is no mention of the four gospels until the writings of Iraeneus of Lyon, and Justin Martyr refered to texts called Memoirs of the Apostles. So there is some confusion somewhere. Especially when Christianity cannot be successfully based on archeology.
But I believe you erroneously believe that all Protestants view the Trinity in the same manner. Some think there is one fellow up there who is simultaneously a Father. Son, and Holy Spirit. Others believe there are there fellows up there, apparently.Things which cannot be proven empirically are to be accepted as a matter of pure faith. This is the bottom line of religion. But at least in the Jewish tradition there are more ancient sources who discuss it, as compared with none who discuss one Paul/Saul, the alleged communities in the 1st century, etc. Take a look at Acts, which refers to the Christians, but only discusses Stephen, and never enumerates any communities in Judea at all.
I find it interesting that Protestants never understood that the concept of the Trinity as a doctrine had no basis in the New Testament at all and did not reject it. Even Catholicism admit it isn't sourced in the NT. Maybe on this point the Oneness groups and Jehovah's Witnesses have a point.
This would also make sense if the whole religion only emerged under the new Constantinian regime of the 4th century, and therefore Christians used it if Christianity did not exist before then.
"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, p. 299, (1967)
The divinity of Christ is found in all books of the New Testament. However, only the Gospel of John specifically identifies Jesus as YHWH of the Old Testament (John 1:1).
It is more than likely that the trinity entered the picture together with the rest of the religion during Constantinian 4th century, the century of which scholars speak so regularly and the century of the apologists, under a new regime that had the means, motive opportunity to establish a new religion that did not exist previously.
Manuscript evidence *IS* empirical evidence. The manuscript evidence is that the entire New Testament existed long before the 4th century. The idea that there was a New Testament but no Christianity is laughable.However, there is no empirical evidence that there was any Christianity before the 4th century.
If manuscript "evidence" was so unequivocal then scholars would not debate them, whether the 2nd or 3rd or 4th century. But most of the material is usually identified as 3rd-4th century, for what it's worth. In any case we both know that there is no evidence of any of the communities referred to in the Epistles for the first century, no evidence that someone named Paul wrote them, outside of the Church dogma, that is.
Find us any historian of that period who thinks there were no Christians in the first three centuries of the common era.If manuscript "evidence" was so unequivocal then scholars would not debate them, whether the 2nd or 3rd or 4th century. But most of the material is usually identified as 3rd-4th century, for what it's worth. In any case we both know that there is no evidence of any of the communities referred to in the Epistles for the first century, no evidence that someone named Paul wrote them, outside of the Church dogma, that is.
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