Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

Der Alte · Jun 12, 2014

CherubRam said:
If the trinity formula is valid, then why is it not mentioned here in Acts 4:12.

Acts 4:12
New International Version (NIV)
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved....

Irrelevant! Argument from silence. I have proved that the earliest references to baptism, outside the NT, in the ECF was that the church unanimously baptized, "in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit." Even Eusebius, whom anti-Trinity folks like to hold up as the final authority, recorded the Triadic formula at least 5 times in his writings. And Finally there is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for Matt 28:19 showing anything other than the Triadic formula.

I left Acts 4:12 in because it does not say what nontrins think it does. It does not say "there is no other name by which we must be saved" It is qualified "under heaven given to mankind" Those words are there for a reason. We know from vs. 10 that the name in vs. 12 is Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is the name under heaven, given to mankind. But there is another name in heaven, not given to mankind by which men are also saved, YHWH. Acts 4:12 and Rom 10:12 are quoting Joel 2:32.

Joe 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] has said, among the survivors whom the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] calls.

2ducklow · Jun 12, 2014

there is one logical fallacy that is of prima importance in proving the trinity. It is used in every verse that is used to prove either that Jesus is God or that God is a trinity. that logical fallacy is called ''Affirming the Consequent"'

Affirming the Consequent
This is a fairly difficult fallacy to understand or spot. It is categorical in nature and, essentially, means reversing an argument, or putting the cart before the horse, meaning reversing or confusing the general category with the specific/sub-category. Note that in this fallacy the premises/reasons are actually correct or valid; the error is found between the premises and conclusion. Usually, the error occurs because we incorrectly assume that the Premise was a sufficient condition, when in fact it was only a necessary condition (one of many conditions) necessary to prove the conclusion.

Fallacy Ex:
Premise: Ducks are birds.
Premise: Ducks swim in the water.
Premise: Chickens are birds.
False Conclusion: Chickens swim in the water.
(Affirming The Consequent Fallacy: not all birds swim in water; swimming is neither a necessary or sufficient condition to be the thing "bird")

Fallacy Ex:
Premise: You loved The Matrix.
Premise: Keanu Reaves is in The Matrix
Premise: Keanu Reaves is in Speed.
Conclusion: You must love Speed.
(Affirming The Consequent Fallacy: you may have like The Matrix even if you don't like Keanu Reaves, or in spite of the fact that he was in it, or maybe you liked him in it but hate him in everything else etc.)

Fallacy Ex:
Premise: Obama wants nationalized health care.
Premise: The Nazis had nationalized health care.
Conclusion: Nationalized health care will make us all Nazis!
(Affirming The Consequent Fallacy: "nationalized health care" is not a sufficient reason to define the category of Nazism, any more than does "swims in water" defines the category "birds". In fact, with the exception of the USA, every country that fought against the Nazis now has nationalized health care.)
Editor's note: Obama does not, in fact, want to "nationalize healthcare".

The Most Common Logical Fallacies
Let's try it out on matthew 28.19 shall we?

Fallacy;

Premise: A trinity has 3 members.
Premise: Matthew 28.19 says Father, son and Holy Spirit.
false conclusion: Father son and holy spirit are a trinity.
(affirming the consequent fallacy): Not all groups of three are trinities. 3 eggs in a basket is not a trinity. 3 triangles in a basket is not a trinity, liquid water, steam and ice in a basket is not a trinity, a man's body soul and human spirit in a basket is not a trinity. only pagen groups of 3 prima dieties are trinities.

this is fun, but I might have overstretched it a bit saying all verses are interpreted as consequent fallacies. Indubitably most are, perhaps all.

2ducklow · Jun 12, 2014

Purge187 · Jun 12, 2014

I'll say this--I think at the end of the day that Trinitarians like myself and the Oneness Pentecostals I sometimes worship with on Sunday worship the same God. David Shatwell is a UPC-based minister and this message lifts my spirit without fail:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJWbd_5CUn4

CherubRam · Jun 13, 2014

Purge187 said:
I'll say this--I think at the end of the day that Trinitarians like myself and the Oneness Pentecostals I sometimes worship with on Sunday worship the same God. David Shatwell is a UPC-based minister and this message lifts my spirit without fail:

No one can keep you from following the Catholic Churches teachings. That is your right.

Purge187 · Jun 13, 2014

CherubRam said:
No one can keep you from following the Catholic Churches teachings. That is your right.

If you've seen my posts here, you'd see I'm no Catholic.

Trinitarianism is subscribed to by most churches, not just the Catholic ones.

2ducklow · Jun 13, 2014

the only way one can see God is to see Jesus, God speaks his words in Jesus, Jesus is one with God, all power and authority is given to Jesus from God, the way to God is through Jesus, Jesus told us to ask him (Jesus) and he would do it, so Jesus functions as God for us,
Trinitarians interpret those facts differently than oneness folks, and differently than me, but to me Jesus is God, but he is only God in the sense I have just stated, which is what scripture states, Jesus is God in the sense that he functions as our God because God deals with us his saints through the medium of the man Christ Jesus.

So I have the same god as Trinitarians, and oneness, even though I am not either of those and even though they reject me as a brother in Christ. I don't reject them cause they believe in JEsus. So the onus is on Trinitarians and onenesss folks , not me.

Receiver · Jun 16, 2014

I'm not really interested in debating Trinitarianism, but I found this video amusing:

St. Patrick's Bad Analogies - YouTube

FireDragon76 · Jun 24, 2014

Gnostics were not Trinitarian.

Kaballah is Orthodox Judaism, and Kaballah understands that while God is one, this oneness doesn't preclude God having many eminations (sefirot). Jews do not reject the doctrine of the Trinity because it is "pagan", but because they do not believe Jesus was the messiah.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
Gnostics were not Trinitarian.

Kaballah is Orthodox Judaism, and Kaballah understands that while God is one, this oneness doesn't preclude God having many eminations (sefirot). Jews do not reject the doctrine of the Trinity because it is "pagan", but because they do not believe Jesus was the messiah.

Kabbalah is man made and it is not Orthodox Judaism. Some Gnostics were Trinitarians.

FireDragon76 · Jun 24, 2014

CherubRam said:
Kabbalah is man made and it is not Orthodox Judaism. Some Gnostics were Trinitarians.

You don't have the right to say what is, and is not, Orthodox Judaism. The fact is that Kaballah is the mystical tradition of Orthodox Judaism. The only observant Jewish groups that reject Kaballah out of hand are groups such as the Karaites, which is a medieval development quite at odds with the ancient consensus of rabbinic, orthodox Judaism.

THIS · Jun 24, 2014

The trinity doctrine is false. It makes a three-headed God.

However, there are three, and the three are One and the same.

Jesus is God come as a Son of Man.

Jesus is God come in the flesh.

The scriptures say there is only one God and that He is the Father.

Since there is only One God and He is the Father that means Jesus is the same as the Father, but trinitarians say Jesus is God but not the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is God but not the Father. Trinitarians says there are three distinct and separate from each other...that means there are three different Gods, and that is a false doctrine.

CherubRam · Jun 24, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
You don't have the right to say what is, and is not, Orthodox Judaism. The fact is that Kaballah is the mystical tradition of Orthodox Judaism. The only observant Jewish groups that reject Kaballah out of hand are groups such as the Karaites, which is a medieval development quite at odds with the ancient consensus of rabbinic, orthodox Judaism.

Karaite Jews claim their history starts with them coming out from the Babylonian captivity. The rabbi who developed the Kabbalah was Rabbi Akiva, he lived around 135AD. Akiva was a Hellenistic Jew. Just because some one says they are Orthodox does not make it so.

OopsyDaisy · Jun 25, 2014

2ducklow said:
The fact that they have been told that they cannot be considered a Christian unless they believe the doctrine of the Trinity must be a major factor and because most churches are Trinitarian, and because most Christians have been Trinitarians for centuries are also major factors in my estimation. It's hard to even consider the possibility that trinity may be wrong IF one believes his salvation is dependant upon believing the trinity. I think most Trinitarians have the fear of hell fire and brimstone if they reject the Trinity.

I no longer believe in the trinity. It's a steady absorption of information - evidence I suppose, which leads one to various conclusions about what is true. I have been reading 'Did Moses Exist', by Acharya - it's tipped me over in my belief now that Yahweh was made-up and didn't exist.
What I have been wondering of late, is what exactly was Jesus like? We only have the gospels to go on - but I have long concluded that there were people involved in the writing of the synoptics in particular, who can't be trusted - they can put any words into the mouth of Jesus, and Jesus can't defend himself now against that sort of misrepresentation.

What would be the correct term for 2 components of God? The Holy Spirit, and the incarnation of the Holy Spirit - Jesus, as that is what I now believe to be the truth - and that is why Jesus never said 'Yahweh' in heaven' - he always said stuff like - 'heavenly father'.
I don't think that is due to the Jewish proscription against saying Yahweh, back in those days - perhaps, perhaps not.
So my ideas are still forming - and my research is now focussed on examining the Gospels with much care.
I don't think salvation is dependant on belief in the trinity - it is dependant on belief that Jesus is the son of God - and in my opinion, God is the invisable Spirit - all those gods of the OT - el shaddai, Yahweh, were either made up entirely, or were at times national gods which every ancient culture had, and made sacrifices to and all that stuff, which was refuted by Sennacherib - accurately and honestly.

Der Alte · Jun 25, 2014

CherubRam said:
Karaite Jews claim their history starts with them coming out from the Babylonian captivity. The rabbi who developed the Kabbalah was Rabbi Akiva, he lived around 135AD. Akiva was a Hellenistic Jew. Just because some one says they are Orthodox does not make it so.

Just because someone with zero credentials in Hebrew says they were not orthodox does not make it so.

Purge187 · Jun 25, 2014

THIS said:
Trinitarians says there are three distinct and separate from each other...that means there are three different Gods, and that is a false doctrine.

No it does not! It says that there's only one God but in His omnipotence and omnipresence He can communicate by different means at one time. He spoke to Moses from a burning bush, Barak through a donkey and Job from a tornado. The bush, donkey and tornado aren't three gods, right?

CherubRam · Jun 25, 2014

Der Alter said:
Just because someone with zero credentials in Hebrew says they were not orthodox does not make it so.

You are babbling.

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 25, 2014

CherubRam said:
You are babbling.

This is not called for and goes against forum rules. Address his argument or not at all. The problem is you can't address his argument intelligently. So I guess you're refuted.

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 25, 2014

THIS said:
THIS said:

The trinity doctrine is false. It makes a three-headed God.

Click to expand...

Empty JW assertion. One being of God. Three persons. Quite different.

However, there are three, and the three are One and the same.

Jesus is God come as a Son of Man.

Jesus is God come in the flesh.

The scriptures say there is only one God and that He is the Father.

Since there is only One God and He is the Father that means Jesus is the same as the Father,

Click to expand...

This is "Oneness" or Unitarianism. It's also a heresy. Please tell me if Jesus is the Father, did he pray to himself in the garden?

but trinitarians say Jesus is God but not the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is God but not the Father. Trinitarians says there are three distinct and separate from each other...that means there are three different Gods, and that is a false doctrine.

Click to expand...

No. You forget the coequal and coeternal part, the one being of God part etc. You're attacking a straw man deviously.

CherubRam · Jun 25, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
This is not called for and goes against forum rules. Address his argument or not at all. The problem is you can't address his argument intelligently. So I guess you're refuted.

If he can call me a dumb ass, then I can mention that he is babbling.

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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