Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

In answer to the above post, no Jesus the man born of Mary was not God but you have missed some important posts here that prove God the Father came and dwelt in Him in ALL fullness and so He was truly God with in that body of flesh which was His one and only begotten Son.

GoingByzantine said:

Greek and Slavic were licit as well.

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And the Roman catholic church had no sway in the Greek orthodox church nor in Russian orthodox church. That's a different ball game.

It is a known fact that the Roman Catholic Church did not always recommend for people to read the scriptures, “Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular (in the common language of the people) there will by reasons of the boldness of men arise there from more harm than good...” (Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, p. 274). It is also clear that many a Pope did not promote scripture. Pope Pius the 7th Encyclical letter of 1816 “It is evident, from experience, that the Holy Scriptures when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have produced more harm than benefit…We have deliberated upon the measures proper to be adopted, by our pontifical authority, in order to remedy and abolish the pestilence.” It was for this reason it was left in Latin (the Holy language) and read mostly by priests). This was a most unfortunate change.

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Tradition,tradition, tradition

This is a problem for all churches. People get crazy ideas about scripture, and they get good ideas, but by in large, most people aren't qualified enough to know the pitfalls in bible interpretation. So if you open it up to everybody, then the pastor has to fight false doctrines being spread around, if on the other hand a pastor closes all comments about bible interpretation , other than the official one, then the pastor misses out on what the Holy Spirit might be revealing to an individual. It's a quandary.

If one has a particularly unexplainable, and illogical doctrine such as the trinity for which there are multitudes of opposing views, then it's very helpful to shut people up a by forbidding the reading of scripture by laymen solves that problem.

I'm not familiar with how the Greek and Russian orthodox churches dealt with this problem but I'm sure they had some method. The proof is in the pudding.

You follow men if and when you do not read and understand the Word for yourselves.

Another thing is you do not have any excuse to not know the truth of His Word, as He has made you a promise

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Also He is available 24 hours a day the yrs. around until the consummation!

Gibs said:

In answer to the above post, no Jesus the man born of Mary was not God but you have missed some important posts here that prove God the Father came and dwelt in Him in ALL fullness and so He was truly God with in that body of flesh which was His one and only begotten Son.

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You are the one who is wrong.

You preach falsely that a man became God.

Shame on you.

Jesus the Son of Man came from heaven.

Jesus existed with the invisible God from the beginning. Jesus was and is the visible of the invisible God before the creation of the world.


If Jesus were a man who became God, then how is it that Jesus the Man CAME FROM HEAVEN?

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

No, This, Jesus the man only came about when He became conceived in His Mother, you or no one can have Him until then and God the Father Himself did not have His one and only begotten Son until Mary birthed Him.

It was the extension of the father who is named LORD, or Yahweh of Hosts who came in the body prepared Him in the fullness of time, please read,

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Heb 10:5 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Yahweh the Father's Redeemer was given to us, a gift of Himself and here is the verse that reveals His name and it states clearly the ONE as it states "I" twice!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and HIS redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The Father Himself, His extended Redeemer out of Himself, He gave to us and in the body prepared to became our Redeemer!

Gibs said:

No, This, Jesus the man only came about when He became conceived in His Mother, you or no one can have Him until then and God the Father Himself did not have His one and only begotten Son until Mary birthed Him.

It was the extension of the father who is named LORD, or Yahweh of Hosts who came in the body prepared Him in the fullness of time, please read,

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Heb 10:5 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Yahweh the Father's Redeemer was given to us, a gift of Himself and here is the verse that reveals His name and it states clearly the ONE as it states "I" twice!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and HIS redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The Father Himself, His extended Redeemer out of Himself, He gave to us and in the body prepared to became our Redeemer!

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You do not even try to discuss the scriptures I gave proving Jesus the SON OF MAN came from heaven.
You merely try to nullify scripture with scripture.
I have already given you scripture that clearly says the SON OF MAN came from heaven.

This,

Then you have two Jesus Christ's the one born of Mary seeded in her by God and the one you claim you gave scripture to prove Him from Heaven. The one from Heaven was our Father's Redeemer, LORD, or Yahweh of Hosts to come and dwell in the body prepared Him in the fullness of time and that was aprox. 2,000 yrs. ago.

No, decidedly, no He was one of us and will be one of us and our King here on this earth made new one day, a bit over 1,000 yrs. from now.

You see Paul gave us some very profound understandings and you can easily see it, I will post the last verse only as it is a wrestle to post verses for some reason to this forum, it adds words to every verse and I have to edit to take them out.

However do read all that I list to get the swing of it,

1Co 15:24
1Co 15:25
1Co 15:26
1Co 15:27
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When Jesus gets all under His feet then the Deity, Yahweh of Hosts is returned to Him that He can be all in all again Really all together.

A realization is needed here and it is this, A Redeemer is never for all eternity future to be needed because, read,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Jesus will then be the second Adam and the king of the new earth and I will be one of His loyal subjects. He has bought me and I am so pleased and grateful to Him for the victory He gave me by dwelling in me and being my strength, for without Him I am nothing.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs said:

This,

Then you have two Jesus Christ's the one born of Mary seeded in her by God and the one you claim you gave scripture to prove Him from Heaven.
The one from Heaven was our Father's Redeemer, LORD, or Yahweh of Hosts to come and dwell in the body prepared Him in the fullness of time and that was aprox. 2,000 yrs. ago.

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That does not even make any sense. There is ONE CHRIST.
What don’t you understand about the MAN that CAME FROM HEAVEN?
You just cannot get around that.

Gibs said:

No, decidedly, no He was one of us and will be one of us and our King here on this earth made new one day, a bit over 1,000 yrs. from now.

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No. We shall be like Jesus. You have brought Jesus to your level.
As for the 1,000 yrs, Jesus is reigning NOW.

Gibs said:

You see Paul gave us some very profound understandings and you can easily see it, I will post the last verse only as it is a wrestle to post verses for some reason to this forum, it adds words to every verse and I have to edit to take them out.

However do read all that I list to get the swing of it,

1Co 15:24
1Co 15:25
1Co 15:26
1Co 15:27
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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Do you not understand that humans have a spirit inside them? Do you not understand that Jesus’ spirit is the Holy Spirit?
Do you not understand that you think a man became God just by the Holy Spirit living in him as the Spirit is in us? THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS’ SPIRIT. Since you do not understand, I will ask you like this: where do you think that Jesus’ spirit is?
Tell me, how do you think a man’s sprit lives in you besides your own spirit?
You see, you fail to accept the truth.

Gibs said:

When Jesus gets all under His feet then the Deity, Yahweh of Hosts is returned to Him that He can be all in all again Really all together.

A realization is needed here and it is this, A Redeemer is never for all eternity future to be needed because, read,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

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Jesus IS THE REDEEMER. JESUS IS THE ROCK. Jesus IS THE HUSBAND. Jesus IS THE SAVIOR.
[FONT=&quot]Is God your Redeemer?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 48:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 54:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is Jesus the Redeemer?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 1:68[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to his people and redeemed them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God is our husband[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband-- the LORD Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jeremiah 3:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Return, faithless people," declares the LORD, "for I am your husband. I will choose you--one from a town and two from a clan--and bring you to Zion.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 2:16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christ our husband[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 11:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 18:31[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God is the Rock[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 18:2 They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 32:18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 32:4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 18:46[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 19:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 31:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 31:3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 42:9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus is the rock[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 9:33[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 10:4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.[/FONT]


Jesus IS NOT God’s Redeemer, as if God needs a Redeemer for Himself to be redeemed, as YOUR teachings imply.
Jesus IS the Redeemer, the Rock, and the Husband.
Jesus is God.

Yes God is my Redeemer, read and He came in Jesus Christ and when it is all completed He Jesus will return the vested Deity back into the Father,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Remember the Father finally when Jesus has it all under His feet the Fathers vested Deity in Him is returned that He may be all in all again!

You just have not seen the full picture yet This, it will come to you if you put it all together, here a little and there a little from different prophets.

Gibs said:

Yes God is my Redeemer, read and He came in Jesus Christ and when it is all completed He Jesus will return the vested Deity back into the Father,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Remember the Father finally when Jesus has it all under His feet the Fathers vested Deity in Him is returned that He may be all in all again!

You just have not seen the full picture yet This, it will come to you if you put it all together, here a little and there a little from different prophets.

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The scripture says that Jesus the SON OF MAN came from heaven.

Notice that you do not respond to the scriptures I use and what I say.

Answer my questions.

Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you or not?

After you answer that question, I would like to expound on it.

Gibs said:

Yes God is my Redeemer, read and He came in Jesus Christ and when it is all completed He Jesus will return the vested Deity back into the Father,

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The scripture does not say Jesus will give back the Deity.
The scripture says that Jesus will hand the kingdom over to God the Father.
See, when Jesus came to earth, he was first God in heaven in the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus, yet he was not yet known as Jesus, not until he came to earth; he was known as Jesus when he gave up his Spiritual body and came in a mortal flesh body.
The invisible God in heaven made this Man Jesus---this name Jesus, this Man became over all. When Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father…it does not mean Jesus is no longer God. It means that he will hand over the kingdom to the invisible God, so that we will be just like Jesus.

This, Oh yes as this is what Paul is telling us, oh yes, the day is coming that Our Father can be ALL IN ALL AGAIN, FINALLY! Do you not know that LORD of Hosts is His Redeemer sent out of Himself to finally come in the body prepared. So truly God the Father gave of Himself to redeem us, what great love and He experienced all the pain and insults and all Jesus did and perhaps even more keenly as He was one with Jesus.

You keep telling me you posted scripture to prove that the man Jesus came from Heaven and yet I read your posts carefully and no such proof have I seen.

Absolutely no man can even be born until he is conceived in a woman.

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Now, Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Gibs said:

This, Oh yes as this is what Paul is telling us, oh yes, the day is coming that Our Father can be ALL IN ALL AGAIN, FINALLY!

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The Father is in all who are saved now.

Gibs said:

Do you not know that LORD of Hosts is His Redeemer sent out of Himself to finally come in the body prepared. So truly God the Father gave of Himself to redeem us, what great love and He experienced all the pain and insults and all Jesus did and perhaps even more keenly as He was one with Jesus.

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It sounds as if you are contradicting yourself. How is God going to feel the pain if He is only a Spirit inside the man Jesus?

Gibs said:

You keep telling me you posted scripture to prove that the man Jesus came from Heaven and yet I read your posts carefully and no such proof have I seen.

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Here it is again:
[FONT=&quot]John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 6:62[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before![/FONT]
Do you see it now? The scriptures say “the Son of Man” came from heaven, not only the Spirit inside him.

Gibs said:

Absolutely no man can even be born until he is conceived in a woman.

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Jesus existed in heaven in the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before coming to earth. Jesus is the First and the Last. The body Jesus had in heaven is the raised Spiritual body he had after dying.
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Gibs,

Answer my questions.

Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you or not?

THIS said:

Gibs,

Answer my questions.

Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you or not?

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Yes Dear This, His Spirit of Truth is in me.

Now on the verse that you gave that that He who came from heaven went back.

Yes you forgot that at that time Jesus and LORD of Hosts are one and the text is speaking of Him. However that is the first time Jesus the man got to see His Father in his Presence. No man was born of woman in Heaven and Jesus was born of woman here on our earth, and 4,000 yrs. aprox. after the fall so He inherited from his Mother our fallen nature and so was tempted in all points as we are.

If it were as you are imagining He couldn't be tempted as we are!

What was inflicted on Jesus was inflicted on the Deity in Him as they were one, as a matter of fact it showed the long suffering of Deity and how He held His peace is beyond what men would endure. His constraint had to have been very high!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Gibs said:

[FONT=&quot]Yes Dear This, His Spirit of Truth is in me.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Do you have Jesus himself in you?[/FONT]

Gibs said:

[FONT=&quot]

Now on the verse that you gave that that He who came from heaven went back.

Yes you forgot that at that time Jesus and LORD of Hosts are one and the text is speaking of Him.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]You cannot have it both ways. You said that the scripture is speaking of God coming from heaven. Jesus IS GOD. The scriptures SAY the SON OF MAN CAME FROM HEAVEN. We know God came from heaven. Again, the scriptures say the Son of Man came from heaven.[/FONT]

Gibs said:

[FONT=&quot] However that is the first time Jesus the man got to see His Father in his Presence.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]You are saying the opposite of what the scripture says.[/FONT]
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus is speaking to the Father about the glory HE JESUS had with the Father before the world begun.
You are NOT dealing with the scriptures.
The Son of MAN came from heaven. JESUS had glory with God BEFORE the world began.
[FONT=&quot]The scriptures that say the Son of Man came from heaven do not make sense with your explanation. You say God is speaking about Himself. How does it make sense to say the scriptures mean that God in Jesus came from heaven? We know that God comes from heaven. You are not saying what the scriptures say, you should instead be saying what the scriptures say, and that is that the Son came from heaven.[/FONT]

Gibs said:

[FONT=&quot] No man was born of woman in Heaven and Jesus was born of woman here on our earth, [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Are you saying anything now? Why would you say no man was born of woman in heaven?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who said Jesus was born in heaven by a woman? [/FONT]

Gibs said:

[FONT=&quot]and 4,000 yrs. aprox. after the fall so He inherited from his Mother our fallen nature and so was tempted in all points as we are.

If it were as you are imagining He couldn't be tempted as we are![/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]God came as a MAN. How do you ever get he could not be tempted as we are?[/FONT]

literal interpretations of figurative verses result in total illogic.

Do non-trinitarians believe that Gen. 6 teaching that is popular now. How alians or demons
have the ability to have babies with humans? Weird beyond belief! This morning one of my fav tv preachers got mired in this. It is so sad to see. When the gospel is our task, not finding weird stuff to tickle the ears.
I have heard this from trinitarians and hope it stops with them.