Trinitarian beliefs?

[ListenerFriendly]

Hello brothers and sisters.

I have been a seeker as of late on my spiritual quest. I grew up mostly in a rather moderate Seventh Day Adventist environment. A faith, as an adult, I have questioned and have had trouble alining myself with. At any rate, I also have numerous questions and issues with modern "American" Christianity. I am rather familiar with the historical Christian movement, and much of what we consider Christian today seems to be more the invention of a corrupt medieval Church.

Therefore, I find it difficult to consider myself Christian. I have attended a Messianic Judaism service and found it enlightening.

Yet I was hoping some here, from the messianic perspective, might have some insight into the concept of the Trinity.

The Old Testament God is a singular, monotheistic deity--always referenced in the singular sense. So doesn't the new testament contradict the Old with the ideas of a Three in One God? In fact, the Trinity--as a concept--is found nowhere in the bible. It is a concept coined by the Church to explain a contradiction to the text. Now, Jesus does fulfill the prophecies, in my mind, of the Messiah. Yet need he be God to fulfill such a calling?

In short--I see the trinity as a great contradiction to the Bible. And I don't believe that God changes with different covenants. God says he is always the same--so why so many contradictions in the Bible?

Just hope for some God-given insight.

Shalom--peace be with you.

 

[cyberlizard]

I find the concept of sephirot to be useful in explaining the concept of the trinity (to a degree at least), or to use an analogy.... consider the sunbeam, it is not the sun itself, but cannot exist without it. This is a good analogy in my opinion for the Word/Devar/Logos/Mamre.

or click this link.... Memra and Metatron.



Steve

 

[yonah_mishael]

Out of curiosity, do you not recognize the concept of trinity in the New Testament corpus? I agree completely regarding the Hebrew scriptures, that according to them there is only one God to whose service the Jewish people are called. There seems to be no indication in the same scriptures that God would ever change the fact that he should be addressed as one, not in reference to pieces of his own being (“God the First, hear my prayer in the name of God the Second by the power and inspiration of God the Third” – meaning, of course, “Father, hear my prayer in the name of the Son by the power and inspiration of the Spirit&#8221. I just don’t see how this type of prayer or belief can be supported by the Hebrew scriptures in their absolute proclamations of monotheistic faith.

My question is specifically about your views of the Christian scriptures. I’m not really sure how it is that you think that this type of faith is not represented in them. When Jesus says that people are to pray “in his name”, what do you take that to mean? When he promises that “another comforter” will come, which is the “holy spirit” and that he would lead the people into all truth, what does this mean to you? Doesn’t it seem to you that these represent three personalities or three “Persons”, as it’s traditionally stated? Do you not see John 1:1 labeling the λόγος (Word) as θεός (God)? Do you not see Paul writing to Titus that Christians are supposed to await the glorious appearing of their “great God and savior, Jesus Christ”? Which translation of the Christian scriptures are you reading from and why are these passages not there?

 

[visionary]

Just a thought...

in the first 2000 years.. right up to Abraham.. geneology was listed "father of"
after Abraham for the next 2000 years looking for our redeemer.. right up to Yeshua..and geneology was listed "son of"
and now we are 2000 years later.. we have been in the time of the "comforter"


maybe ?? coincidence

 

[janwoG]

In the beginning was the Torah (Word) and the Torah was with Elohim and the Torah was God, He was with Elohim in the beginning. All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing made had being. (Yochanan 1.1-1-3) And the Holy Torah became flesh.(Yochanan 1.14) Yeshua said "For the Son of Man is Lord (Adonai) of the Sabbath ( Mattithyahu 12:8) That way Yeshua said He is God, because only God is Adonai of the Sabbath. Furthermore Adonai of the Sabbath means Adonai of the Torah. Indeed He is the incarnate of the Holy Word of God, the Torah.
If Jesus called His Father Abba, He witnesses that besides to Him the Father is a Person. Jesus would call Him En Sof the Eternal, if it would be a impersonal Spiritual State. If in the great commission, He linked Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and were the only Person, He wouldn't call Himself Abba. Let us pray that the Holy Ghost leads us on the way of the Messiah towards the Father. Trinity is just a Greek label of what is already in the Holy Writ.
The Nicene Creed is just the right interpretation of key elements in Christianity of the Holy Writ Now an other word about Trinity:
Before the World was created, God was in Its State of Absolute Rest and Peace. Its main aspect was Its Isness or essence (without substance connotation), called the Godly Ground by these mystics, the middle age monks, like Johannes Tauler, Johannes Eckhart, and Jan Van Ruysbroeck. During their meditative experience that got aware of the Three Godly Persons melting down to Their Essential Unity. This Godly Ground has been also experienced by Jewish mystics, such as Moses Maimonides calling it the Eternal En Sof,
At the creation the Father God the Creator emerged from the Divine Ground and was conferred His Divinity from the Godly Ground. The Father expressed His Word and transmitted His Divinity to Him. The Word fulfilled His Sonship in the Historical Jesus by hypostatic union between the Godly Word and the human nature of Jesus, the Word received His Divinity from the Father. The Holy Ghost is the Loving Compassion between Father and Son Whose Divinity was breath out from the Father. The Father also transmits His Divinity to the Holy Ghost at the breathing out. At the seventh day of the creation, God was in His essential Rest and contemplated His work. That why Sabbath is so important and most of the Pauline Christianity missed it. Sabbath is also Yeshua day.
In other terms, the Father is the Open Door through Which flows out the Godly Essence. Since the only one and same Essence or Isness of God supersedes the three Persons potential beings of every Divine Person, one has to recognize that God is One. Of course in humans, if we have three persons, we have three human beings.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Hello brothers and sisters.

I have been a seeker as of late on my spiritual quest. I grew up mostly in a rather moderate Seventh Day Adventist environment. A faith, as an adult, I have questioned and have had trouble alining myself with. At any rate, I also have numerous questions and issues with modern "American" Christianity. I am rather familiar with the historical Christian movement, and much of what we consider Christian today seems to be more the invention of a corrupt medieval Church.

Therefore, I find it difficult to consider myself Christian. I have attended a Messianic Judaism service and found it enlightening.

Yet I was hoping some here, from the messianic perspective, might have some insight into the concept of the Trinity.

The Old Testament God is a singular, monotheistic deity--always referenced in the singular sense. So doesn't the new testament contradict the Old with the ideas of a Three in One God? In fact, the Trinity--as a concept--is found nowhere in the bible. It is a concept coined by the Church to explain a contradiction to the text. Now, Jesus does fulfill the prophecies, in my mind, of the Messiah. Yet need he be God to fulfill such a calling?

In short--I see the trinity as a great contradiction to the Bible. And I don't believe that God changes with different covenants. God says he is always the same--so why so many contradictions in the Bible?

Just hope for some God-given insight.

Shalom--peace be with you.

Thanks for your post .

You are right to state that God does not change with different covenants. I would further say it is right to not think of the Tanakh and Brit Hadashah as different covenants, but take it in its context. The word "Hadashah" is the same word utilized for the "renewed" moon, by the Jews. In essense we may think of the Brit Hadashah as being a "renewal" of the covenant, much as is similar to what went on in the Torah with the renewing of the covenant (the Torah never went away). As is such, Yeshua says the Tanakh never goes away in Matthew 5:17-20.

On the trinity, there are some statements within the Council of Nicaea that I take issue with (especially the II Council). The Scriptures never mention the trinity. These are true statements.

But, ANE Literature and Language scholar, Dr. Michael Brown lays out a lovely illustration of the Shema which illustrates the nature of God. "Shma Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad." Hear Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Adonai is the plural form of Adon (Interesting!).

Echad is a word that means unity. In a sense you may think of this as Oneness, but in another sense, it is appropriate to think of God as existing in more than one form. He may exist in the form of the Father, the Son and the Ruach Hakodesh, but in a union. Hence it is appropriate to state that God exists in a triune nature. Unlike Trinitarians, you will not hear the word "persons" from me in relevance to God.

Hope this helps.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Out of curiosity, do you not recognize the concept of trinity in the New Testament corpus? I agree completely regarding the Hebrew scriptures, that according to them there is only one God to whose service the Jewish people are called. There seems to be no indication in the same scriptures that God would ever change the fact that he should be addressed as one, not in reference to pieces of his own being (“God the First, hear my prayer in the name of God the Second by the power and inspiration of God the Third” – meaning, of course, “Father, hear my prayer in the name of the Son by the power and inspiration of the Spirit&#8221. I just don’t see how this type of prayer or belief can be supported by the Hebrew scriptures in their absolute proclamations of monotheistic faith.

My question is specifically about your views of the Christian scriptures. I’m not really sure how it is that you think that this type of faith is not represented in them. When Jesus says that people are to pray “in his name”, what do you take that to mean? When he promises that “another comforter” will come, which is the “holy spirit” and that he would lead the people into all truth, what does this mean to you? Doesn’t it seem to you that these represent three personalities or three “Persons”, as it’s traditionally stated? Do you not see John 1:1 labeling the λόγος (Word) as θεός (God)? Do you not see Paul writing to Titus that Christians are supposed to await the glorious appearing of their “great God and savior, Jesus Christ”? Which translation of the Christian scriptures are you reading from and why are these passages not there?

There is only one God in the Brit Hadashah as well. But in a plurality of forms.

When it says "pray in his name" we pray in the Mashiach's name, to the father.

On the Hypostasis or "The Logos was God", this can be seen as expected by Jewish authorities on the Torah (see Proverbs 8), as well we see its reflection in the Targums, and the Apocryphal literature. "Son of Man" and "Son of God" are terms that denote divinity as can be seen in the Book of Enoch. Your own rabbis expected this from the Mashiach.

IOW, it is correct to state, and this is consistent with Judaism, that the Mashiach is pre-existing.

Rambam is the one who changed the meaning of "The Lord is One" by instituting hellenized culture into the Tanakh. This was as a reaction to the Crusades, due to control. The absolute proclamations of Oneness Monotheism mentioned by Yonah here is incorrect.

 

[janwoG]

To: Hamashiachagape
I often speak of three aspects of God, because there are not three independent beings but just one Divine Isness.I see the mission of Messianic Jews to awaken the Church of Jerusalem on one side and to reconnect Pauline Christianity to its Jewish roots, not imposing the whole of Torah, because they never will be able to accept this, but to encourage them to adhere to, I call landmarks of the Torah, that is the 10 Sinaic commandments, to revert to Sabbath as day of Elohim and Yeshuah, the Jewish festivals in grafting on those the most important Christian Festivals as resurrection grafted on the Passover, Sunday of resurrection can be consedered as extended Sabbath, the birth of Christ to Sukkot or Simchat Torah (Yeshua is the incarnate Torah) and so on. Besides the circumcision of the heart, I do not recommend the ritual circumsision which bounds to the all Mitzvoth. That way, Pauline Christianity cannot be anymore something out of Judaism. We owe this to all those deads of the Shoah, which compel us to reassess the decisions of the first council of Jerusalem. In Messianism, the commandments of the Sinai should be put in relation to the mount of blessings, the Sinai of Yeshuah, of which blessings are even harder to satisfy than the Torah, and where we need Yeshuah to be pardoned.
Therefore, I use the name of Persons in order to consistent with Pauline Christianity. It is unfortunate that there is a division Messianism with regard to Trinity or Not Trinity, because it weakens it towards its Mission in Pauline Christianity.
One can graft a wild branch to the olive tree, but I have never herd of grafting an apple branch on a olive tree.
Let us hope that the Shoah and the grace of God will lead mainstream Christianity to a closer practice of Yeshua the Meshiach and fulfilling the role of the Torah practicing Church as the Spiritual New Israel.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

On the Hypostasis or "The Logos was God", this can be seen as expected by Jewish authorities on the Torah (see Proverbs 8), as well we see its reflection in the Targums, and the Apocryphal literature. "Son of Man" and "Son of God" are terms that denote divinity as can be seen in the Book of Enoch. Your own rabbis expected this from the Mashiach.

IOW, it is correct to state, and this is consistent with Judaism, that the Mashiach is pre-existing.

Thank you for your posts which have been very helpful.

Would it be possible to point me in the direction of any further online reading on what I've highlighted above?

I had read somewhere that in Gen 1:2 the reference "the Spirit of God" is alluded to as being the Mashiach. Admittedly it was on chabad.org website but I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind elaborating on what you'd written.

Todah!

 

[cyberlizard]

Spirit of God = Spirit of Messiah in reference to the above citation in Genesis....

this is actually stated practically word for word in the NT.


Steve

 

[ContraMundum]

There's a reason the ancient Creeds all start with "We believe in One God..."