Treating People With Dignity and Respect.

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
So there is impersonation. Your definition of Christian is different yet you keep trying to force it on people. Anyone can call themselves anything they like. Forget who you think is Christian and stick to the issue.

Sorry but I have pointed out that it does condemn same-sex unions and marriage is a man woman union so there is no such thing as same-sex marriage.
As I keep saying, you have said you dont believe the Bible yet you keep referring to what you dont believe about it, so I am not interested in what you don’t believe I am interested in what you do believe. You don’t believe the Bible, so talk about what you do believe, the basis of your belief. At present the basis of your belief is your disbelief of the Bible.

Ok but if they don’t believe in God why would they want you to tell them about Godly issues? But if they did believe in God it wouldn’t be the person telling them it would be the person pointing them to what God says.

I have been talking about what I believe. I have presented my beliefs quite clearly. I am trying to stay focused on the topics of these threads rather than discussing my broader beliefs as a UU Christian.

I have noted that many Bible-believing Christians do not regard same-sex relations as a sin. I am not Bible-believing, and so I do not refer to myself when I say this. I am simply pointing out the reality: that many Bible-believing Christians do not interpret the Bible the way you do when it comes to the subject of same-sex relationships. And it's true that the Bible never mentions same-sex marriage. To say that therefore same-sex marriage does not or cannot exist is like saying that computers do not or cannot exist because the Bible does not mention them. You are reading into the silence of the Bible your own beliefs about same-sex marriage. Not every Christian interprets the Bible's silence on this subject as you do.

Your last two quotations in your post are from someone else, not from me.

 

[Phinehas2]

But what is the basis of your views? Mine is the Bible and that’s why I quote the Bible texts. You don’t believe what the Bible says, you put what the Bible says down to interpretation. Ignore the Bible and tell me why you believe what you believe and on what basis. At present all you have given is your personal experience and the Jesus Seminar which doubts, disputes and rejects the authority of the Bible.
Its easy debating with a Muslim for example, their views are based on the Quranic and Hadith revelation, they like you consider the Bible unreliable as the true word of God, whereas I believe the Bible is the true word of God, which is what makes me a Christian.

 

[Ohioprof]

But what is the basis of your views? Mine is the Bible and that’s why I quote the Bible texts. You don’t believe what the Bible says, you put what the Bible says down to interpretation. Ignore the Bible and tell me why you believe what you believe and on what basis. At present all you have given is your personal experience and the Jesus Seminar which doubts, disputes and rejects the authority of the Bible.
Its easy debating with a Muslim for example, their views are based on the Quranic and Hadith revelation, they like you consider the Bible unreliable as the true word of God, whereas I believe the Bible is the true word of God, which is what makes me a Christian.

I have told you several times the bases for my beliefs and ideas. I draw my beliefs and ideas from a variety of sources: from my personal life experiences, from what other people describe as their life experiences, from different writings and scientific findings and the insights of different disciplines.

I do not say that my beliefs come from a particular scripture because they do not come from any scripture. I hold no text as the word of God or as singularly authoritative. I don't find any need to regard a text as authoritative. I see all texts as subject to critical scrutiny and critical evaluation.

I have not put down what the Bible says. I simply do not regard it as the word of God. I have observed that everyone who reads the Bible interprets it, and different people interpret it differently. The act of reading involves interpretation. You can't read something without interpreting it. You can recite words without drawing any meaning from the words, but that's not reading. Reading involves interpretation; it's part of the process of reading.

Getting back to the topic of treating people with dignity and respect, I have found that most Christians here do say gay people should be treated with dignity and respect, and that's a positive thing, I think.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,
Yes I accept that you have told me this but your experiences are merely therefore your experiences, as opposed to mine which whilst similarly experiences are also in line and tested against God’s word. What are your experiences tested against?

: from my personal life experiences,

they seem to differ form mine, who is to say whose is credible?

from what other people describe as their life experiences,

but not the ones whose experiences don’t match or suit yours, hence your agreement with practicing gays but not ex-gays.

from different writings

yes like the Jesus seminar which is un Christian.

and scientific findings

yes but not all scientific findings, just the ones you believe

and the insights of different disciplines.

which ones?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Yes I accept that you have told me this but your experiences are merely therefore your experiences, as opposed to mine which whilst similarly experiences are also in line and tested against God’s word. What are your experiences tested against?


they seem to differ form mine, who is to say whose is credible?
but not the ones whose experiences don’t match or suit yours, hence your agreement with practicing gays but not ex-gays.
yes like the Jesus seminar which is un Christian.
yes but not all scientific findings, just the ones you believe
which ones?

This is not a thread to debate the basis of my religious and secular beliefs. I have told you the basis, and that should be enough on that. You are free to disagree with my beliefs certainly, but this is not the forum for a debate over why I believe what I believe in general. If you want to debate or discuss what I believe about homosexuality, that's on topic for this subforum.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

This is not a thread to debate the basis of my religious and secular beliefs.

Ok providing you don’t dispute my Bible based beliefs.

You are free to disagree with my beliefs certainly, but this is not the forum for a debate over why I believe what I believe in general.

I am free to criticise your source evidence just as you are to criticise mine, and I will.

If you want to debate or discuss what I believe about homosexuality, that's on topic for this subforum

But your view on homosexuality must be based on something, just as mine are. I have given you my source, the Bible citations and quotations, now you give me your source evidence, that’s how debate works.
No you explain please the source evidence for your views on homosexuality just as I have explained mine by citing the Bible. .

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,

Ok providing you don’t dispute my Bible based beliefs.

I am free to criticise your source evidence just as you are to criticise mine, and I will.
But your view on homosexuality must be based on something, just as mine are. I have given you my source, the Bible citations and quotations, now you give me your source evidence, that’s how debate works.
No you explain please the source evidence for your views on homosexuality just as I have explained mine by citing the Bible. .

My view on homosexuality is primarily shaped by my experiences as a gay person.

I disagree with some of your statements about homosexuality and about what the Bible says about homosexuality. I am not focused on trying to discredit the basis of your beliefs. I am simply saying that not all Bible-believing Christians interpret the Bible as you do.

Gotta run. Catch you later.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

My view on homosexuality is primarily shaped by my experiences as a gay person.

Ok but my view of heterosexuality isn’t based on my experience as a straight person, if it was I would according to the Bible be a practicing adulterer and probably a porn surfing pervert because we are generally tempted indulge in self gratification of things that titilate us. No my view on sex is based on God’s word according to the Biblical testimony. Praise and thanks to God. See 1 Cor 6 again, I used to be like this but thanks to Christ I ma washed clean and now seek Him and righteousness not sin.

I disagree with some of your statements about homosexuality and about what the Bible says about homosexuality.

I haven’t said anything about what the Bible says about homosexuality, I have however commented on what the Bible says about same-sex sex. Your definitions are all different, that’s why we can barely communicate, as it seems all your worldview is sex orientated and mine Bible orientated.

I am simply saying that not all Bible-believing Christians interpret the Bible as you do.

I am saying the Bible says what it says, anyone who thinks they can interpret the Bible says opposite to what it says cant be a Christian cant be a Christian, the very descriptions defines them as not a Christian.
No you have merely once again told me what you don’t believe, not what your particular beliefs are, except once again that your beliefs seemed based on denying the Bible.
Can you provide me your source evidence please?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,

Ok but my view of heterosexuality isn’t based on my experience as a straight person, if it was I would according to the Bible be a practicing adulterer and probably a porn surfing pervert because we are generally tempted indulge in self gratification of things that titilate us. No my view on sex is based on God’s word according to the Biblical testimony. Praise and thanks to God. See 1 Cor 6 again, I used to be like this but thanks to Christ I ma washed clean and now seek Him and righteousness not sin.

I haven’t said anything about what the Bible says about homosexuality, I have however commented on what the Bible says about same-sex sex. Your definitions are all different, that’s why we can barely communicate, as it seems all your worldview is sex orientated and mine Bible orientated.
I am saying the Bible says what it says, anyone who thinks they can interpret the Bible says opposite to what it says cant be a Christian cant be a Christian, the very descriptions defines them as not a Christian.
No you have merely once again told me what you don’t believe, not what your particular beliefs are, except once again that your beliefs seemed based on denying the Bible.
Can you provide me your source evidence please?

My world view is certainly not sex-oriented! Being a gay person for me is not about sex. My life doesn't include sex, as I am single. Being a gay person, for me, is about being attracted to women, loving women, choosing to marry a woman if and when I am in a position to do so. Right now I have no interest in dating, as I am busy raising my daughter.

My experience of being gay has also included, alas, much experience with discrimination and with fear for my safety and the safety of my friends. That's what I am hoping to change. I don't care what other people's religious beliefs are, though discussing them is interesting. My primary concern as a gay person is with ending the discrimination and the attacks against gay people in the civil society. Churches are and should be free to include or exclude whomever they please. My concern is with the wider civil society, what happens to gay people out in the world. I want to see gay people treated with dignity and respect, as I think all people should be treated with dignity and respect. My faith calls me to honor what our UU church body calls "the inherent worth and dignity of every person." That is why I raised the question of how Christians should treat gay people. That, I think, is the central moral concern when it comes to homosexuality. Not whether same-sex relations are sinful, which to me is a non-issue. I don't believe they are sinful within the context of marrage, and to me this is not a question worth debating. Whether two consenting adults have sex is not, I think, anyone else's business. I think the central moral concern that all Christians need to face is how we will treat gay people, no matter what we think of same-sex sex.

My evidence that not all Christians interpret the Bible as you do comes from the very debates we see in these threads. People debate the meaning of scripture, specifically the meaning of scripture as it may or may not apply to gay people or to same-sex relationships. More evidence comes from the divisions within the Episcopal Church, in which Christians have grown divided over the meaning of the Bible when it comes to how the church should treat gay people. The evidence is plain that not all Christians interpret the Bible the same way.

All who read the Bible interpret it. Reading the Bible and trying to understand it is an act of interpretation. You can't read something without interpreting it. Not everyone interprets what they read the same way, and this is the case with people reading the Bible.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Yes I accept that you have told me this but your experiences are merely therefore your experiences, as opposed to mine which whilst similarly experiences are also in line and tested against God’s word. What are your experiences tested against?


they seem to differ form mine, who is to say whose is credible?
but not the ones whose experiences don’t match or suit yours, hence your agreement with practicing gays but not ex-gays.
yes like the Jesus seminar which is un Christian.
yes but not all scientific findings, just the ones you believe
which ones?

My personal life experiences are credible to me. I think we all rely on our personal life experiences in order to learn. We don't rely only on our personal experiences, which is why we read and inform ourselves from other sources. But personal experience informs all of us, I think, and we bring our personal experiences, who we are, to every situation. People who read the Bible are not blank slates; they bring themselves to the interpretation of any text, including the Bible.

I do not "test" my personal experiences against any scripture, because I do not assume that any scripture is authoritative. You do, and that's up to you.

What is a "practicing gay?" Is that a gay person who is in a relationship with someone of the same sex? It seems that's what you mean.

I don't agree or disagree with people for living their lives. If someone says they are "ex-gay," fine with me. It's not my business to judge them or to "disagree" with them. It's their life, not mine.

I honor the findings of science whatever those findings are. I recognize that any scientific theory is subject to revision based on new evidence. I don't "disagree" with any scientific theories. I accept them as the best explanations for phenomena that scientists have come up with to this point.

As for the disciplines that inform my thinking, I of course look to my own discipline, which is history. I also look to the various natural sciences and the social sciences to shape my thinking and provide knowledge of the world. I look to scholarship on the various religions, including but not limited to Christianity. I look to philosopy and to literature, which are cousins to history, as they and history are humanities.

 

[TexasSky]

Why do some people believe it is Biblical to malign and discriminate against a certain group of people?

Because they are human beings.
Because they choose to listen to men, rather than read God's word.
Because they act like Phraisees and Saducees, and are blind yet they see.

I'm amazed at how many Christians have said things to me like, "That isn't in the bible," when, in fact, what they are talking about is a direct quote from Christ Jesus Himself, and it is often not only in it, but in it twice.

Or how many times they talk against love and in favor of judgement, referring to one or two verses written in Timothy, while ignoring Christ in Matthew and Mark, and ignoring John and Peter and James and even Paul.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I did not bring up the subject of prejudice. I responded to what YOU said about prejudice. If you say something about whether you harbor prejudice, people will respond to what you say.

The subject of prejudice is tied to how we treat other people, whether we treat them with dignity and respect, and so your bringing it up is certainly not off topic for this thread. Also, a thread does not belong to someone. If I start a thread, it's not my thread. People are free to take the thread in different directions related to the OP.

Well I'm not sure I agree that the OP shouldn't have a say in what direction their thread goes, but haven't seen where they are asking to change where it is going so will just say if they don't want this direction then to please let us know.

I have been reported for derailing a thread and frankly even tho I was the only one asking to go back to the OP, well..............just trying to avoid any problems.

In answer to the comparison you made, people are not born adulterers the way people are born women or born gay or born African American or born Irish. Being an adulterer is not an identity that people have through the course of their lives. It's something some people do, usually with regrets. We don't make people who commit adultery wear forever a scarlet A.

Well you see people are born adulterers, murders, theives, etc., because we are all born sinners. You know I can see why Paul believed it was better to not marry, well I say Paul forgive me if I'm using the wrong example here. (My mind is still suffering from my past weeks of illness.)

Anyhow I think that to much is put on things that take our eyes off the Lord. I can remember when there was no question that pre-marital sex was wrong in the Lords eyes. That drinking and getting drunk was wrong, etc. Now all I see is people trying to say there are no white and black areas in life, just gray, and that a loving God won't hold us responsibile for our actions.

Being gay is a personal identity; it's not an act. I am gay whether I have a relationship or not or whether I have sex or not. I am currently not in a relationship with a spouse, and I do not have sex. That does not make me any less gay. Prejudice is pre-judging people. If someone pre-judges another on the basis of who they are, then they are exhibiting prejudice. To judge what a person does is to render judgment, but it's not prejudice, because it's judging an action. Adultery is an action. Being gay is simply who a person is.

Well considering I have never said anything accept that homosexuality(the action) is a sin then I am not real sure I fit into your judging catagory. We all sin, we all need forgiveness, we all need salvation, but it isn't on our terms it is on God's terms plain and simple.

Most of the Christians here say they do treat gay people with dignity and respect, though we would need to see how people actually live their lives to know for sure. A few people clearly do not treat gay people with dignity and respect, probably because they harbor prejudice against gay people. I try to recognize and get rid of my own prejudices, because I think prejudice is harmful, and it undermines our treating fellow human beings with dignity and respect. I do judge other people's actions sometimes, most often on the basis of whether those actions harm others. That's not prejudice; it's simply judgment. Perhaps some of my judgments are wrong. It depends on what I am judging, I think.

As I have already said everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, and yes I have seen people on both sides of this issues not showing those characteristics. I have also seen people grouped into boxes. If you believe that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin then you are a hater, bigot, closed-minded, brainwashed, fundemental conservative.

I have seen people saying how badly they are treated, all the while treating the people they are talking with, the same way they say they are treated.

There is no excuse for not showing respect to someone even if that respect isnt' returned. IMHO. Not saying I haven't let my emotions get away from me in some of these debates, but with the Lords help I will continue to leave for awhile as compared to returning rude disrespectful post.

As the bible says, and yes I know you don't believe in the bible as the word of God, but anyhow we are told not to return evil for evil.

 

[Ohioprof]

Well I'm not sure I agree that the OP shouldn't have a say in what direction their thread goes, but haven't seen where they are asking to change where it is going so will just say if they don't want this direction then to please let us know.

I have been reported for derailing a thread and frankly even tho I was the only one asking to go back to the OP, well..............just trying to avoid any problems.



Well you see people are born adulterers, murders, theives, etc., because we are all born sinners. You know I can see why Paul believed it was better to not marry, well I say Paul forgive me if I'm using the wrong example here. (My mind is still suffering from my past weeks of illness.)

Anyhow I think that to much is put on things that take our eyes off the Lord. I can remember when there was no question that pre-marital sex was wrong in the Lords eyes. That drinking and getting drunk was wrong, etc. Now all I see is people trying to say there are no white and black areas in life, just gray, and that a loving God won't hold us responsibile for our actions.



Well considering I have never said anything accept that homosexuality(the action) is a sin then I am not real sure I fit into your judging catagory. We all sin, we all need forgiveness, we all need salvation, but it isn't on our terms it is on God's terms plain and simple.



As I have already said everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, and yes I have seen people on both sides of this issues not showing those characteristics. I have also seen people grouped into boxes. If you believe that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin then you are a hater, bigot, closed-minded, brainwashed, fundemental conservative.

I have seen people saying how badly they are treated, all the while treating the people they are talking with, the same way they say they are treated.

There is no excuse for not showing respect to someone even if that respect isnt' returned. IMHO. Not saying I haven't let my emotions get away from me in some of these debates, but with the Lords help I will continue to leave for awhile as compared to returning rude disrespectful post.

As the bible says, and yes I know you don't believe in the bible as the word of God, but anyhow we are told not to return evil for evil.

I am sorry to hear that you have been sick. I hope you feel much better soon.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I am sorry to hear that you have been sick. I hope you feel much better soon.

Thank You. Still have some ways to go, but do believe I am finally over the hump.