Treated Like a Human Being

[Tree of Life]

Ummm...why would we "owe god our lives"? Maybe I'm assuming too much but if you had a child, you wouldn't think that child "owed you it's life"...would you?

In a sense. My children exist because of me in a very direct way. And (at this stage at least) I uphold their lives (3 years old and 1 year old).

But God upholds our lives in a much more intimate and direct way. He is constantly providing oxygen, making our hearts pump, providing food and income, property and housing, etc... As John the Baptist said, a man cannot receive even one thing unless it is given to him from heaven.

Our lives are made by God and for God and constantly upheld and directed by God. They belong to him. We owe them to him.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is the following statement true:

X deserves respect, honor, obedience, dignity, etc because X upholds our lives and we owe our lives to X.

Where X stands for anything.

Maybe so. But this statement is true in the ultimate sense only of God. He ultimately upholds our lives and we ultimately owe our lives to him. We owe honor and respect to our parents, for instance, because we owe our lives to them to a lesser degree and they uphold our lives to a lesser degree.

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't think so. It is a direct appeal to a persons sameness to you. The appeal is to empathy, that we all wish to be treated with respect and dignity and thus when someone asks for the treatment we would all wish, it resonates with other sentient rational and empathic beings.

Not in every instance. Sometimes we feel mistreated by a superior. Maybe a boss. In those instances we still say: "I just want to be treated as a human being." We're not, in those instances, asking to be treated as a perfect equal. We know that our superiors are still superiors. And yet we sense that there is still a degree of honor and dignity that our superiors owe us without overthrowing their superiority.

 

[Tree of Life]

A 'fact'? In the same way that gravity is a fact, or that fire is hot? I don't know how you'd determine that sort of thing - I think assigning value to something necessarily requires a mind, which makes it an opinion. Rocks might have a different one, if they were capable.

Fire being hot also requires a mind. Without a conscious being able to sense heat "fire is hot" is totally meaningless. Heat is also incredibly relative. Hot to whom? Fire is certainly hot for humans but conceivably not so for another conscious being. So "fire is hot" by your standards seems to be more opinion than fact.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In a sense. My children exist because of me in a very direct way. And (at this stage at least) I uphold their lives (3 years old and 1 year old).

But God upholds our lives in a much more intimate and direct way. He is constantly providing oxygen, making our hearts pump, providing food and income, property and housing, etc... As John the Baptist said, a man cannot receive even one thing unless it is given to him from heaven.

Our lives are made by God and for God and constantly upheld and directed by God. They belong to him. We owe them to him.

That was a really good way to not answer my question...I'm not going to get sidetracked into a discussion on what "upholds" our lives. I didn't even bring that up.

I asked you...

Does your child owe you it's life?

 

[Thawk]

.

 

[Golden Yak]

Fire being hot also requires a mind. Without a conscious being able to sense heat "fire is hot" is totally meaningless. Heat is also incredibly relative. Hot to whom? Fire is certainly hot for humans but conceivably not so for another conscious being. So "fire is hot" by your standards seems to be more opinion than fact.

You're taking the wrong meaning, I'm afraid. Maybe 'fire gives off heat' will be more clear to you? It will do so in the absence of any minds. But I think my point is quite clear in any case.

In a sense. My children exist because of me in a very direct way. And (at this stage at least) I uphold their lives (3 years old and 1 year old).

But God upholds our lives in a much more intimate and direct way. He is constantly providing oxygen, making our hearts pump, providing food and income, property and housing, etc... As John the Baptist said, a man cannot receive even one thing unless it is given to him from heaven.

Our lives are made by God and for God and constantly upheld and directed by God. They belong to him. We owe them to him.

God conciously directs all autonomous functions, does he? Sounds made up to me. I wonder if John the Baptist understood how lungs worked. Does that mean someone who suffocates in an enclosed space or suffers heart failure or starves abandoned out in the wild is a victim of divine negligence? Are they exempt from being 'owned'?

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, I don't want to be owned and don't recognize anyone's right to own me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're taking the wrong meaning, I'm afraid. Maybe 'fire gives off heat' will be more clear to you? It will do so in the absence of any minds. But I think my point is quite clear in any case.



God conciously directs all autonomous functions, does he? Sounds made up to me. I wonder if John the Baptist understood how lungs worked. Does that mean someone who suffocates in an enclosed space or suffers heart failure or starves abandoned out in the wild is a victim of divine negligence? Are they exempt from being 'owned'?

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, I don't want to be owned and don't recognize anyone's right to own me.

You've spoiled my fun, Yak.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"I just want to be treated like a human being."

This is a common expression with many variations. All of us can resonate with its sentiment at some level. We've probably recently felt this way or even made this expression - particularly when we feel we're being disrespected.

I think that implicit within this expression is the doctrine of the image of God.

What do we mean when we say: "I just want to be treated like a human being"? We mean that we want to be treated with respect, dignity, and some measure of honor that we feel is due to all humanity. But why do human beings especially deserve any of this? If we believed deep down that humanity was not especially different from any other animal or any other object (see object oriented ontology) then this expression would seem flat. We do believe deep down that all humans deserve dignity, respect, and honor.

Why? Because human beings are image bearers of God - and God deserves respect, honor, and dignity. When we say: "I just want to be treated like a human being" I think that we really mean: "I just want to be treated like an image bearer of God."

This is where the argument goes astray. We are animals. That is a fact. But we are also different to every other species of animal with which we are familiar. We are distinguished by, among other things, our ability to write poetry, do calculus, and propel members of our own species to our nearest satellite, and perhaps beyond. If you don't you see anything special about us unless some god declares that we are special, then I don't know what more to say.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If we believed deep down that humanity was not especially different from any other animal or any other object

I don't believe that. We are significantly different from non-living objects, and there are differences between us and other animal species. Do you know of any other animal species that tells stories, debates ethics, and the like?

Why? Because human beings are image bearers of God

No, that's not the reason. It's because we are human.

There is no need for me to appeal to anything divine in order for a social species like us to see the need for ethics. Likewise, there is no need for me to see anything divine in human beings just because they tell stories, debate ethics, and the like.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

Unless you want to get into a discussion that totally tangents from the OP.

No, as long as you make things like this clear at the start of your threads, I'm good.

 

[variant]

Not in every instance. Sometimes we feel mistreated by a superior. Maybe a boss. In those instances we still say: "I just want to be treated as a human being." We're not, in those instances, asking to be treated as a perfect equal. We know that our superiors are still superiors. And yet we sense that there is still a degree of honor and dignity that our superiors owe us without overthrowing their superiority.

A request for basic human dignity is not a request for absolute equality.

We are still appealing to common experience from our superiors when we make such a request. Regardless of our differences, what is basically the same between any two people is their humanity.

 

[quatona]

"I just want to be treated like a human being."

This is a common expression with many variations. All of us can resonate with its sentiment at some level. We've probably recently felt this way or even made this expression - particularly when we feel we're being disrespected.

I think that implicit within this expression is the doctrine of the image of God.

What do we mean when we say: "I just want to be treated like a human being"? We mean that we want to be treated with respect, dignity, and some measure of honor that we feel is due to all humanity. But why do human beings especially deserve any of this? If we believed deep down that humanity was not especially different from any other animal or any other object (see object oriented ontology) then this expression would seem flat. We do believe deep down that all humans deserve dignity, respect, and honor.

Why? Because human beings are image bearers of God - and God deserves respect, honor, and dignity. When we say: "I just want to be treated like a human being" I think that we really mean: "I just want to be treated like an image bearer of God."

I think I have never used that phrase.
It is interesting to learn what you, ToF, mean when using it, though.

 

[intrastate108]

"I just want to be treated like a human being."

Here is the root of your problem as you are relying on an external response for something that comes from within.

In sanskrit, Hu is 'light of the divine', Man, is 'mind'
So human is a divine mind, being - now.
In latin, homo sapiens is 'wise man'

Many are animals in human suits, living on impulse and bondage of the carnal mind devoting themselves to materialist and not spiritualist pursuits.

Cain was a tiller of the Earth, he devoted himself to cultivating his material, earthy aspirations and the lord rejected his offering.

So that is the current predicament of the human condition, we cultivate ourselves by adorning ourselves with materialist items, status and worry about the opinions of others when all we have to do is recognize the divinity within and start by treating ourselves as a human being and what is projected from within becomes reflected externally. Then you will see your environment reflect that self reverence, respect and dignity but it starts from within.

Unfortunately, self reverence comes with responsibility and requires self discipline and what comes aligned with our materialist endeavours and carnal mind is our ego which wants what it wants when it wants and how it wants without barriers or restrictions. And the ego is a demon very few are willing to dance with.

 

[Paradoxum]

"I just want to be treated like a human being."

I think that implicit within this expression is the doctrine of the image of God.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Though I'd say I want to be treated like a person, not a human. So it's to do with my mental state, not my physical state. 'Human' could be seen as a shortcut for 'person' sometimes though, since most humans are persons.

What do we mean when we say: "I just want to be treated like a human being"? We mean that we want to be treated with respect, dignity, and some measure of honor that we feel is due to all humanity. But why do human beings especially deserve any of this? If we believed deep down that humanity was not especially different from any other animal or any other object (see object oriented ontology) then this expression would seem flat. We do believe deep down that all humans deserve dignity, respect, and honor.

I think there's a reason to consider humans and some other non-human animals are morally different.

I think animals such as apes (humans), elephants, and dolphins have self-consciousness, and a recognition of their own existence. ie: The know the exist through time, and they can wish themselves to continue to exist.

So that's why it's wrong to kill them.

Other animals can be considered to have a right not to be harmed.

That's just a vague overview, but I don't see why it's strange for people to claim a level of respect.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

We do believe deep down that all humans deserve dignity, respect, and honor.

And I think they do, because life and consciousnss are sacred (ought not be violated), and thats a discovery not an invention.

*************

Sometimes during the war, soldiers keep their enemies in concentration camps and kill them in very cruel ways. These are reactions brought about by unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse and by hunters in the forest.

^^Source