Transubstantiation

[Proselyte]

At what point is the bread and wine supposed to literally turn into flesh and blood? If you took a microscope to a sample of the bread and wine ingested by the receiver, why wouldn't we find actual flesh and blood as we are told it is?

 

[a_ntv]

At what point is the bread and wine supposed to literally turn into flesh and blood? If you took a microscope to a sample of the bread and wine ingested by the receiver, why wouldn't we find actual flesh and blood as we are told it is?

why wouldn't we find actual flesh and blood as we are told it is? Because our faith is little.

Do you believe only at what you see? Why do you believe in God?
Or do you believe only at religiuos matters that are related only to the spirit? But the christian life is really real life, not only spiritual life.

 

[Proselyte]

why wouldn't we find actual flesh and blood as we are told it is? Because our faith is little.

Do you believe only at what you see? Why do you believe in God?
Or do you believe only at religiuos matters that are related only to the spirit? But the christian life is really real life, not only spiritual life.

I have faith, but if the bread remains bread, and the wine remains wine, is that not our clue that Jesus was talking symbolically?

 

[a_ntv]

I have faith, but if the bread remains bread, and the wine remains wine, is that not our clue that Jesus was talking symbolically?

No . Jusus was not talking symbolically...

 

[Polycarp1]

This is not at all a trick question. But, and forgive the flippancy, the answer depends on that famous Bill Clinton-ism: "It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."

The Catholic Church and all ths historical churches who hold to sacramental doctrine have always subscribed to the Real Presence: in the prayer of consecration, Jesus Christ comes to be "really" present under the form of the bread and wine offered at the Eucharist/Mass/Divine Liturgy.

The Catholic Church spells this out quite explicitly, but it requires a shift in one's metaphysical paradigm from the everyday. The Scholastic metaphysics of St. Thomas Aquinas holds that what something "really" is, is not a product of what it appears to be. If your priest dresses up as a ghost for a Hallowe'en costume party, he's not "really" a ghost, but the same priest who celebrates Mass for you. Appearances can be deceiving.

When the elements are consecrated, their "accidents" -- their external appearance, chemical composition, the wheat gluten in the flour of the hosts, the alcohol content of the wine -- remain exactly the same. But the underlying reality of what they are -- their substance -- is transformed. They no longer are bread and wine, but the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Suppose we define a dog as "a four-legged, tailed carnivorous mammal with fur which barks." Cut off his legs and tail, remove his larynx so he can't bark, and shave off all his fur -- he remains a dog. The essence of dogness remains, even though you've changed the accidents by which he can be recognized.

In transubstantiation, the accidents remain the same, but the underlying substance, the "breadness" and "wineness," are changed to the Body and Blood.

According to thereselittleflower, there are rare, occasional miracles in which the accidents change to match the substance, where the Body and Blood appear as body and blood to the senses. This would be an entirely different miracle, one for the edifying and strengthening of faith, a "transaccidentiation."

But every time a priest says the prayer of consecration with intent to celebrate Mass, the Holy Spirit is faithful to answer his prayers, and changes the sacred elements into the body and blood of Christ, which we perceive, under the form of bread and wine, by faith.

 

[Polycarp1]

I should add that many other churches, Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc., do not subscribe to Aquinas's metaphysics, and do believe in the Real Presence but not, or not necessarily, in transubstantiation.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Thanks for that explanation Polycarp!

 

[INRI2]

Excellent post polycarp!

At what point is the bread and wine supposed to literally turn into flesh and blood?

"Father let your spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become the body and blood of our lord Jesus Christ at who's command we celebrate this eucharist, on the night he was betrayed he took the bread and gave you thanks and praise, he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples saying "take this all of you and eat it, this is my body which is given up for you" after the supper was ended he took the cup again he gave you thanks and praise, he gave the cup to his disciples and said "take this all of you and drink from it, this is my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, it will be shed for you and for many for the forgivness of sins, do this in memory of me"

The priest then holds up the eucharist to show the congregation....

"THIS IS THE LAMB OF GOD, broken for you, happy are those invited to his supper"

We pray to the eucharist

"lord I am not worthy to recieve you, but only say the word and I shall be healed"

 

[Splayd]

We pray to the eucharist

For those of us that don't believe in transubstantiation - that sounds an awful lot like idolatry.

 

[ScottBot]

For those of us that don't believe in transubstantiation - that sounds an awful lot like idolatry.

For those of us who do, we are worshipping Jesus Christ the way we are supposed to.

No different that how some people essentially worship thier bible, because both the bible and Jesus are referred to as "the Word".

 

[Lynn73]

Hypothetically to your way of thinking, tell us how you would feel someday if you found out you'd just been praying to a round wafer all this time. I'm really curious as to how you would react if, when Jesus returns or you die and go before God, you found this out.

I don't worship the Bible. I worship it's Author and I believe what He says. Jesus is the Word, the Bible is the word.

 

[ScottBot]

Hypothetically to your way of thinking, tell us how you would feel someday if you found out you'd just been praying to a round wafer all this time. I'm really curious as to how you would react if, when Jesus returns or you die and go before God, you found this out.

I don't worship the Bible. I worship it's Author and I believe what He says. Jesus is the Word, the Bible is the word.

My comments weren't directed at anyone specifically Lynn, I am sorry if you took it that way.

Honestly, I believe the Eucharist to be Christ. I have faith that Jesus will forgive my naivity if my understanding is misguided, since it is my intent to worship Jesus the best way I know how.

 

[Iosias]

I believe in real presence but not in transubstantiation.

 

[cathmomof3]

double post deleted...

 

[cathmomof3]

At what point is the bread and wine supposed to literally turn into flesh and blood? If you took a microscope to a sample of the bread and wine ingested by the receiver, why wouldn't we find actual flesh and blood as we are told it is?

There have been many Eucharistic miracles in which the host (body) has actually turned into real flesh and has preserved itself for hundreds of years. When this flesh was tested by scientists, it was proven to be the same tissue as our heart. The blood type in all of the miracles is the same (AB). The link is http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html .

I suppose however, just as in the Mary and Muslims discussion, some will claim that these miracles come from satan.

 

[Splayd]

I just read my last post and it could appear to be offensive. Apologies if it's taken that way. I suppose my point is obvious though. If we believe the eucharist is just a wafer, then it certainly would seem to be idolatrous to pray to it.

There are many others that believe in the "real presence" that don't subscribe to the definition of Transubstantiation. Do those other groups/ churches/ denominations also pray to the eucharist?

 

[cathmomof3]

I just read my last post and it could appear to be offensive. Apologies if it's taken that way. I suppose my point is obvious though. If we believe the eucharist is just a wafer, then it certainly would seem to be idolatrous to pray to it.

There are many others that believe in the "real presence" that don't subscribe to the definition of Transubstantiation. Do those other groups/ churches/ denominations also pray to the eucharist?

No offense taken. you are correct in that if we worshipped the Eucharist and did not believe that it is Christ, it would be idolatry. But, I believe it with everything that I am. It is very hard to explain the feeling when I receive communion. When I am in the presence of the Eucharist, there is nowhere else that I feel closer to God. It does not compare to anything else.

 

[Iosias]

Do those other groups/ churches/ denominations also pray to the eucharist?

No

XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.THE Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves, one to another, but rather it is a sacrament of our redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ, and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of bread and wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

As Catholic's we believe the Eucharist IS Christ. Not like Christ, not symbolically Christ, & not representing Christ... but CHrist Himself, body, blood, soul and divinity.

Believing as such, don't you expect us to worship it? Wouldn't you, if you believed as we do?

A Protestant poster here once said something pretty powerful, something along the lines of:

"If I was Catholic and I believed in the Eucharist as they do, I would go to adoration, fall on my knees, and never get up."

 

[ScottBot]

As Catholic's we believe the Eucharist IS Christ. Not like Christ, no symbolically CHrist, not representing CHrist... but CHrist Himself, body, blood, soul and divinity.

Believing as such, don't you expect us to worship it? Wouldn't you, if you believed as we do?

A Protestant poster here once said something pretty powerful, something along the lines of:

"If I was Catholic and I believed in the Eucharist as they do, I would go to adoration, fall on my knees, and never get up."

That just about sums up the Catholic position.