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Transhumanism

S

Steezie

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Transhumanism is the belief that technology can be used to improve and refine human life and function.

This is an example of the higher goals of a Transhumanistic society
Trans-post-human2.jpg


Are such notions wrong or can technology really make our lives better and perhaps longer.
 

Shemjaza

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Staying one six foot tall body trapped in a gravity well by a need for oxygen and the lack of other forms of locomotion seems like a limited goal for post humanity. :)

Gully Foyle is my name
And Terra is my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
 
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Shemjaza

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Is that a picture for a proposed robot/android or for "improvments" intended to be implanted in a living human?
Posthuman is often used as the ultimate goal of a Transhuman society. That would be a human being with genetic and technological modifications.

Personally, I’d label all those modifications as transhuman, with posthuman being a long way down the track.
 
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Mling

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ehh...I don't like the idea of people being dependent on machines like that. I mean, even today if your car breaks down or something, people have this "Well.....what do I do now?" reaction. I would not want to see a society where people are unable to think, see, hear or touch without the assistance of a machine.

But...I'm the one who drools over the possibility of taking blacksmithing lessons and is having serious trouble figuring out how to make wine, vinegar, cheese and bread in a studio apartment while minimizing the risk of cross-contamination of all those little microbes. (I think the vinegar will end up being kept in the bathroom).
 
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Shemjaza

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ehh...I don't like the idea of people being dependent on machines like that. I mean, even today if your car breaks down or something, people have this "Well.....what do I do now?" reaction. I would not want to see a society where people are unable to think, see, hear or touch without the assistance of a machine.

I completely understand your point. I see it as a natural progression from eyeglasses, insulin and laptops to the more full on personal modifications. But if you were meshing people with machines a very high level of accuracy and testing would be necessary.

So like ghost in the shell? Orthodics? Replace your body with machines? ummm no thanks. I would rather have my primitive cancer vulnarable body. Maybe I am missing something. This is about merging your body with machines right?

Like that, but not limited to machines. I wouldn’t want to lose all the stuff I enjoy about my life, but if technology could make me smarter, healthier and longer-lived I’d be all for it. (Plus being able to log into the Internet by closing my eyes would be cool.)

But...I'm the one who drools over the possibility of taking blacksmithing lessons and is having serious trouble figuring out how to make wine, vinegar, cheese and bread in a studio apartment while minimizing the risk of cross-contamination of all those little microbes. (I think the vinegar will end up being kept in the bathroom).

Ha! That’s cool. I don’t even want to have a back yard. I like being able to go visit nature; I don’t want it in my home.
 
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Shemjaza

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I like the chimaira human-animal hybrid thingy better.
Givent that with our current technology people do things like this:

tiger-man.jpg


to themselves. I can only imagine the sort of variety we’ll have in the future.
 
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Steezie

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Is that a picture for a proposed robot/android or for "improvments" intended to be implanted in a living human?
The diagram is an idealized form of what humans will be. They are cybernetic modifications added to a human body to enhance thier function.

So like ghost in the shell? Orthodics? Replace your body with machines? ummm no thanks. I would rather have my primitive cancer vulnarable body. Maybe I am missing something. This is about merging your body with machines right?
In the higher echelons of Transhumanism, yes. But ultimately the goal of Transhumanism is Singularity, where technology and man combine to such an extent that there is a burst of technological achievement and development.
 
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MoonlessNight

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In the higher echelons of Transhumanism, yes. But ultimately the goal of Transhumanism is Singularity, where technology and man combine to such an extent that there is a burst of technological achievement and development.

What is the point of this lauded "singularity?" In all the support for it I hardly ever see a justification of it, the best I see is arguments that it is inevitable. All well and good if true, but in that case why urge it along?

If the object of power is power I guess that the object of technology is technology.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Something that I think we have to be aware of is that all technology comes with a price. And I'm not speaking of the cost of materials either, it's a sort of devil's bargain were to reap the benefits of technology significant risks must be endured and fundamental changes to human society must be made. Some of these are obvious. If you rely on an electricity you are tied down to the electric company. There is risk of fire, and a variety of other accidents as well, but risks are more negligable because the advance of technology (for the most part) decreases existing risks (though new risks also pop up to replace them). But the changes made remain.

With newer technology the genie asks for more and more significant sacrifices. A finger sufficed last time, and now it's the whole hand. It isn't just a method of living anymore, about being tied to a community not just for survival but for information, entertainment, and most things that people consider living. It is a requirement that rights be ceded and perspectives changed. Even the advent of e-mail and typed communication has it's downfalls. We are limited in communication, we lose the handwriting of it all. Things like mathematical notation especially suffer and morph into the weird cs notations. Our models become computer based and in so doing they become discrete. Continuity is discarded for a quicker model. As for rights, we are finding more and more that the right to privacy, to dissapear is something that technology is taking. You aren't on display, but your life can be loaned out with less and less effort.

And that's where we are at now. We are content to change our houses, our cities, our societies and perhaps even our perspectives and personalities. Next the person too must be discarded. For one thing we should be sure that it is something better that we seek.

I am also reminded of the conversation in Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet. Our reasoning for these changes seems to be a loyalty to future man, the man who will be born heir to our advances and technology. But I do have to wonder, why do we have this loyalty? Is it because we look forward to the future of mankind? But in this quest I think transhumanists are eager to throw away any part of the human, so that perhaps nothing human will remain. So this future man really has about as much relation to us as any alien or artificial life. Though thinking about my encounters with transhumanists I think that some of them realize that too. Because how many futurists agree that if we create AI it will surpass us and that will be humanity's ultimate accomplishment? It's just as good, in the end, as relentless modification of the human body and form. But of course in that situation we know that we won't be coming along for the ride, we'll be left behind. But I think in any singularity, if they even can happen, we will all be left behind.
 
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Shemjaza

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I am also reminded of the conversation in Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet. Our reasoning for these changes seems to be a loyalty to future man, the man who will be born heir to our advances and technology. But I do have to wonder, why do we have this loyalty? Is it because we look forward to the future of mankind? But in this quest I think transhumanists are eager to throw away any part of the human, so that perhaps nothing human will remain. So this future man really has about as much relation to us as any alien or artificial life. Though thinking about my encounters with transhumanists I think that some of them realize that too. Because how many futurists agree that if we create AI it will surpass us and that will be humanity's ultimate accomplishment? It's just as good, in the end, as relentless modification of the human body and form. But of course in that situation we know that we won't be coming along for the ride, we'll be left behind. But I think in any singularity, if they even can happen, we will all be left behind.
I don't think singularity and transhumanity have to be intrinsically linked. The goal of transhumaism is posthumanity not singularity.

Singularity is an idea based the seeming exponential growth of technology and in particular computing power. I've seen it dismissively labeled "The Rapture of the Nerds" due to it frequently being more about faith then actual evidence.

I once read an article by a pro biological transhumanism advocate who saw the technological singularity as something to be fought at all costs. His reasoning was that there is no reason at all to assume that the super intelligent machines that would result would have any more empathy to our wishes then we do for ants.
 
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S

Steezie

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What is the point of this lauded "singularity?" In all the support for it I hardly ever see a justification of it, the best I see is arguments that it is inevitable. All well and good if true, but in that case why urge it along?

If the object of power is power I guess that the object of technology is technology.
The Singularity will be the next step in human evolution where technology and humanity combine to such a degree that we are able to transcend our current state of being

Something that I think we have to be aware of is that all technology comes with a price. And I'm not speaking of the cost of materials either, it's a sort of devil's bargain were to reap the benefits of technology significant risks must be endured and fundamental changes to human society must be made. Some of these are obvious. If you rely on an electricity you are tied down to the electric company. There is risk of fire, and a variety of other accidents as well, but risks are more negligable because the advance of technology (for the most part) decreases existing risks (though new risks also pop up to replace them). But the changes made remain.
There is a cost to LIVING, technology simply changes the cost, it doesnt add new cost.

With newer technology the genie asks for more and more significant sacrifices. A finger sufficed last time, and now it's the whole hand. It isn't just a method of living anymore, about being tied to a community not just for survival but for information, entertainment, and most things that people consider living. It is a requirement that rights be ceded and perspectives changed. Even the advent of e-mail and typed communication has it's downfalls. We are limited in communication, we lose the handwriting of it all. Things like mathematical notation especially suffer and morph into the weird cs notations. Our models become computer based and in so doing they become discrete. Continuity is discarded for a quicker model. As for rights, we are finding more and more that the right to privacy, to dissapear is something that technology is taking. You aren't on display, but your life can be loaned out with less and less effort.
Again, these costs dont mount, they simply change.

And that's where we are at now. We are content to change our houses, our cities, our societies and perhaps even our perspectives and personalities. Next the person too must be discarded. For one thing we should be sure that it is something better that we seek.
And why are such changes bad? This is the next step in human development we're talking about, why is that bad?

The goal of transhumaism is posthumanity not singularity
Not specifically true, some Transhumanists hope that posthumanity will LEAD to a technological singularity. Others hope for one or the other, there are different branches of Transhumanism.
 
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Shemjaza

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The Singularity will be the next step in human evolution where technology and humanity combine to such a degree that we are able to transcend our current state of being
Singularity strikes me as something of a cop out, kind of like an atheistic "Posthumans move in mysterious ways".

I don't doubt that our species next step in evolution is transhuman or extinction, but the singularity always seems like willful ignorance. I think if the trend of technological increase continues (and we don't have global collapse over the next century) we will see the tech curve flatten out to some extent.

We will find better smaller more integrated ways to apply our technology, not keep finding super, faster, fundamentally different things.

Interestingly a friend of mine is also a transhumanist pagan. He's sort of a nature based pantheist, but fundamentally an atheist when it comes to divine intervention or an afterlife.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I once read an article by a pro biological transhumanism advocate who saw the technological singularity as something to be fought at all costs. His reasoning was that there is no reason at all to assume that the super intelligent machines that would result would have any more empathy to our wishes then we do for ants.

Well what I was wondering is, why should we consider this a necessarily bad thing, from a transhumanist perspective? The artificial intelligence would be human created and have a certain human flavor to some extent at least, so it is in some ways a continuation of humanity. Sure there is no direct generational connection between us and them, but it strikes me that transhumanism would discard the current model of human reproduction if it hindered humanity anyway. What I mean is that a transhumanist might want to bring human form to something very like these highly intelligent machines, or at least some of them would. Why is the transition so necessary? And as for our wishes being flaunted, it is ridiculous to imagine that oru transhuman descendents would have motives even remotely resembling our own far enough down the line (except for perhaps a few key tenants), but transhumanism would have a loyalty towards them.

Is it just a loyalty to what can technically be called human, while at the same time striving to break that very definition? And if so I have to wonder what would happen if we encountered alien species, especially if they were "superior" (however that is determined) to our own. If they in some way hinder the progress of humanity, can they be eliminated?
 
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MoonlessNight

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And why are such changes bad? This is the next step in human development we're talking about, why is that bad?

It is a step in human development. It is yet to be seen if it is the next one.

Progress is a direction, but it isn't a direction like time is. There are more than two directions and limitless choices to be made.

Yet transhumanism for some reason assumes a fixed direction and calls this progress. It is good because it is progress and progress because it is good.

I guess it just seems arbitrary to me.
 
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