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Transgender embryos

Waiting for the Verdict

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Sorry, I hope 2 posts is not considered flooding the boards. I ask the mods to alert me if it is, and I'll re-post this later.

So here is my question? Assuming we could get our genetics technology to alter the chromosonal makeup of an embryo, what would that mean for the anti-gay rights activists? For instance, is an embryo that is altered from 'male' to 'female' at 1 month old considered a transgendered individual? Who would the religous right suggest this person sleep with - a male or a female? If she was originally a female embryo, but then altered into a male embryo, would she be having 'immoral' homosexual sex when she sleeps with a man, or when she sleeps with a woman (Please assume that all uses of male and female are in quotes.). Would such a person be required to remain chaste for their entire life? Is it someone's fault if they are born transgendered?

Anyone?
 

bammertheblue

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Um, all embryos start out female in their development anyway, don't they? I thought it was kind of the default position.

That's what I thought...the embryo mutates in about 50% of the cases and then, presto, you have a male!

Honestly...I've never thought about this issue. It's an interesting question though.
 
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jayem

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In your hypothetical, you are assuming that gender identity comforms to chromosomes. Usually true, but not always. Ultimately, sex is in the brain. If your brain says you're female, then that's what you are, anything to the contrary notwithstanding. And to my knowledge, it's not known with certainty how and when the brain acquires gender identity. It could occur at an earlier stage than when you assume XY could be changed to XX (a very, very far out hypothetical, IMO.) In which case, you won't change a male to a female, you'll only create a female transsexual, who'll still have a male gender identity. True transsexualism is a serious condition. It is very distressing for the affected person and is usually associated with depression and a significant suicide risk.

I don't know what a religious person would think, but an appropriate use for any such future technology would be to correct transsexualism. I say this not because I think transsexualism is immoral. I don't. It's a medical condition which should be treated. If we could identify which embryos had a disconnect between their brains and their sex chromosomes, it would be beneficial to conform embryonic development of anatomic sex to the sex of the brain. Or, alternatively, to have the brain conform to the DNA. Either would be much better than the current technique of sex reassignment, which is about the most invasive and extreme makeover possible. But realistically, the kind of technology you're suggesting is way, way off.
 
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Waiting for the Verdict

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In your hypothetical, you are assuming that gender identity comforms to chromosomes. Usually true, but not always. Ultimately, sex is in the brain. If your brain says you're female, then that's what you are, anything to the contrary notwithstanding. And to my knowledge, it's not known with certainty how and when the brain acquires gender identity. It could occur at an earlier stage than when you assume XY could be changed to XX (a very, very far out hypothetical, IMO.) In which case, you won't change a male to a female, you'll only create a female transsexual, who'll still have a male gender identity. True transsexualism is a serious condition. It is very distressing for the affected person and is usually associated with depression and a significant suicide risk.

I don't know what a religious person would think, but an appropriate use for any such future technology would be to correct transsexualism. I say this not because I think transsexualism is immoral. I don't. It's a medical condition which should be treated. If we could identify which embryos had a disconnect between their brains and their sex chromosomes, it would be beneficial to conform embryonic development of anatomic sex to the sex of the brain. Or, alternatively, to have the brain conform to the DNA. Either would be much better than the current technique of sex reassignment, which is about the most invasive and extreme makeover possible. But realistically, the kind of technology you're suggesting is way, way off.
Hey, jayem. I actually did know about some of what you said in the first paragraph, but I was trying to simplify things for evangelical readers.

I don't know how far out it is, yet. I'd be interested if you have any info on this.:)
 
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JesusWalks78

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i was often wondering about that...as genetic research continues, and everyone wants to amke abortions legal. That would be pretty bad for the gay community...because you would have religious people, finding out there child was gay, and having legal abortions to ensure that they dont have homosexual children.

I am against abortions of all kinds, especially those that you can pick and choose your children (there is a name for it I just cant remember.)
 
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Waiting for the Verdict

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i was often wondering about that...as genetic research continues, and everyone wants to amke abortions legal. That would be pretty bad for the gay community...because you would have religious people, finding out there child was gay, and having legal abortions to ensure that they dont have homosexual children.

I am against abortions of all kinds, especially those that you can pick and choose your children (there is a name for it I just cant remember.)

Yea, we've been talking about the same issue in my office. Fortunately, genetic screening technology may never get that advanced, but even if it could predict with 90% certainty that one's child would be gay, what would the religous right's reaction to that be? Would abortion suddenly become valid (Personally, I doubt it, but I'm not totally sure)? Already, we are aborting children out of concerns for genetic purity - hence the numerous children with Down's syndrome who have been aborted in recent years. Again, while I'm personally pro-life, I'm not condemning pro-choicers either. However, I could not support such a eugenics oriented policy, because I would have been aborted under it (My family has a pronounced genetic predisposition to mental illness).
 
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JesusWalks78

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Yea, we've been talking about the same issue in my office. Fortunately, genetic screening technology may never get that advanced, but even if it could predict with 90% certainty that one's child would be gay, what would the religous right's reaction to that be? Would abortion suddenly become valid (Personally, I doubt it, but I'm not totally sure)? Already, we are aborting children out of concerns for genetic purity - hence the numerous children with Down's syndrome who have been aborted in recent years. Again, while I'm personally pro-life, I'm not condemning pro-choicers either. However, I could not support such a eugenics oriented policy, because I would have been aborted under it (My family has a pronounced genetic predisposition to mental illness).

The problem is that the pro choice people wouldnt be able to stop it...because there argument is that its the woamns body, therefore her choice.

In many societies male children are placed as being better...what if they start aborting females. What happens then? What happens if they do find that the child would have any kind of genetic defect and decide to abort...where does it ever end. Are we going to be trying to put together a society of beautiful people and not allow for any other type of "efective"person be born.

It would make an interesting thread...but I dont think I have the time to start one.
 
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RavenPoe

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So your admitting that sexual preference is genetic or can be assigned in utero?

There have already been tons of horror stories of people, upon having a girl child, abandoning or killing it in order to try again for a boy. This would just speed up the process, and the technology to do so is already here. We can find the gender of an embryo and we are capable of abortion.
 
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JesusWalks78

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So your admitting that sexual preference is genetic or can be assigned in utero?

Not at all, but in the argument ofthe pro lifers, many of which are pro gay marriage...that is a common argument with no 100% evidence to back it up.

There have already been tons of horror stories of people, upon having a girl child, abandoning or killing it in order to try again for a boy. This would just speed up the process, and the technology to do so is already here. We can find the gender of an embryo and we are capable of abortion.

So that is an acceptable reason to kill a child?
 
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mpshiel

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As in many cases, the original OP is asking a question which already exists - the condition is known now as intersex and has never worried the Christian community very much because it is simply too complicated. 1 in 2000 births are born with ambigious genitalia. 50 years ago they used to believe that it was environment that created gender identity so they actually had a ruler and if it Y long, then surgery would make it a boy, and but only X long and the genitals would be cleaned up to make it a girl. Of course, months to years later, when the gender identity starts appearring this was often at odds with the "assigned" gender resulting in adult corrective surgery or suicide. A famous example of this line of thought and the outcome is David Reimer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

As for the chomosomically opposite gender, this particular condition is called AIS or Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome: means that the body is incapable at some level of absorbing the hormone androgen (males and females have BOTH estrogen and testosterone/androgen in their bodies, just in differing levels, androgen is the dominant male hormone). What this means is that a sperm and egg meet, making an XY combination, the DNA creating small testes. However, because androgen cannot be absorbed (this is an inherited condition 66% of the time) the fetus follows the Eve Default, because all fetus are female, it is the washes of hormones and the changes which subsequently occur which make males. Thus, when a baby with Complete AIS (CAIS) is delivered, there is a normal healthy girl. The girl, complete with appropriate genitalia, will not have a uterus or ovaries, but rather internalized testes, along with an XY chromosome instead of the XX chromosome. The girl will develop normally through puberty, including breast development but without menstruation. It is either now or later that a doctor will be consulted, who with a consult to an endocrinologist, will determine the CAIS condition; which is usually followed up with a recommendation for removal of the internalized testes as they can become a significant cancer risk.

Unlike the "assigned" genders of the 60's onward, CAIS females, do not have gender identity problems. They know they are female, everyone knows they are female. It is only when the XY chromosome normally associated with males becomes known that ignorance in society starts imposing their binary preconceptions (if you think gender is only determined by chromosomes you can give yourself a wake up smack now; if you are a Christian and use the phrase “God doesn’t make mistakes” to justify this view, find yourself a really big bible to smack yourself with).

Traditionally doctors have lied to their CAIS patients, often removing the testes under the guise of removing problematic ovaries, or simply saying they have a uterus problem and can’t have children. Of course, when the patients found out later as adults, THAT caused psychological problems. Indeed CAIS used to be called Testicular Feminization (tell me you can’t hear the male oriented panic in that term). As regards to sexual orientation, one CAIS female reports that lesbians occur about 10%, the same percentage as the general population. But only ignorance places CAIS as anything other than females, they just happen to be an XY female. Indeed, It was because of conditions such as these that the Olympic committee dropped the “chromosome test qualification” in 1990, simply because 1 in 400 women were getting negative results; and having to face the media storm of “it’s a man!” before being cleared by doctors as females (ALL females competitors who tested negative in recent Olympics were cleared by doctors as females). Some competitors, after the initial negative test results were so traumatized, that they dropped out of sports entirely (like sprinter Eva Klobukowska who had XXY chromosomes; another intersex condition).

There are about 16 different intersex conditions. AIS is merely one of them. Some CAIS women are already married and adopted children before they find out thier condition (remember the doctors that told them they had a "bad uterus" and removed the testes) - there are equivilant intersex conditions for gender identified males, I know one who is a minister, and has adopted children, been in a marriage for 30 years and though the only testosterone in his body comes from an injection and his chromosomes may or may not match those of other "men" to somehow try to make his life into "gay marriage" would merely be a display of ignorance. First off, the term "gay marriage" implies a sexual orientation - and simply this - there IS a different between gender identity and sexual orientation. When you wake up in the morning you expect when you look in the mirror to see a) a male or b) a female - this is your gender identity. If you expect to see A and you see B reflecting back - then you have what is referred to as Gender Identity Disorder - go see a doctor and they will refer you to a specialist to determine whether this is a result of a pre-existing intersex condition, a transseuxal condition or a side effect of another condition (for example other diseases can produces this feeling as a side effect, specifically Schizophrenia).

Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to (people like Johnny Depp and Angelina Jolie excepted, who seem to be attractive to both sexes) - if you find yourself interested/aroused/wanting to share your life with a) someone of the same gender identity/sex then this is referred to as being "gay" - thus "gay marriage" is one between two people of the SAME gender identity. Unless of course Christians again want to ignore thousands of doctors and the olympic committee and make some sort of pronouncement that while simplifying the world for them, makes pain and havoc for others.

The main concern for doctors with intersex, ambigious genitalia and other similar conditions is for the welfare of thier patient - history has shown that this is BEST served by matching the gender identity of the person to the body (which is why many doctors wait a few years after birth before doing any surgery) - simply doing a chromosome test and chopping and constructing an outcome IS not the best solution (especially since two rare intersex conditions create bodies that produce both the XX and XY chromosomes from different parts of the body - I guess we cut them in half? Also, there are 6 people currently alive who have BOTH fully functioning genitalia).

Medically and historically, diversity WILL occur in humans, and DOES already - it is simply that most people are unaware of these and other condition, and in that ignorance, may make assumptions or say things which are bigotted or emotionally harmful.

In an aside, India has already aborted 5 million babies based on gender (female) and created a new test to tell the gender of the fetus earlier on; also Dr. Charles Rosselli of Oregon is already trying to alter fetuses of sheep to turn them from gay to straight - with potential human applications.
 
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Waiting for the Verdict

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As in many cases, the original OP is asking a question which already exists - the condition is known now as intersex and has never worried the Christian community very much because it is simply too complicated. 1 in 2000 births are born with ambigious genitalia. 50 years ago they used to believe that it was environment that created gender identity so they actually had a ruler and if it Y long, then surgery would make it a boy, and but only X long and the genitals would be cleaned up to make it a girl. Of course, months to years later, when the gender identity starts appearring this was often at odds with the "assigned" gender resulting in adult corrective surgery or suicide. A famous example of this line of thought and the outcome is David Reimer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

As for the chomosomically opposite gender, this particular condition is called AIS or Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome: means that the body is incapable at some level of absorbing the hormone androgen (males and females have BOTH estrogen and testosterone/androgen in their bodies, just in differing levels, androgen is the dominant male hormone). What this means is that a sperm and egg meet, making an XY combination, the DNA creating small testes. However, because androgen cannot be absorbed (this is an inherited condition 66% of the time) the fetus follows the Eve Default, because all fetus are female, it is the washes of hormones and the changes which subsequently occur which make males. Thus, when a baby with Complete AIS (CAIS) is delivered, there is a normal healthy girl. The girl, complete with appropriate genitalia, will not have a uterus or ovaries, but rather internalized testes, along with an XY chromosome instead of the XX chromosome. The girl will develop normally through puberty, including breast development but without menstruation. It is either now or later that a doctor will be consulted, who with a consult to an endocrinologist, will determine the CAIS condition; which is usually followed up with a recommendation for removal of the internalized testes as they can become a significant cancer risk.

Unlike the "assigned" genders of the 60's onward, CAIS females, do not have gender identity problems. They know they are female, everyone knows they are female. It is only when the XY chromosome normally associated with males becomes known that ignorance in society starts imposing their binary preconceptions (if you think gender is only determined by chromosomes you can give yourself a wake up smack now; if you are a Christian and use the phrase “God doesn’t make mistakes” to justify this view, find yourself a really big bible to smack yourself with).

Traditionally doctors have lied to their CAIS patients, often removing the testes under the guise of removing problematic ovaries, or simply saying they have a uterus problem and can’t have children. Of course, when the patients found out later as adults, THAT caused psychological problems. Indeed CAIS used to be called Testicular Feminization (tell me you can’t hear the male oriented panic in that term). As regards to sexual orientation, one CAIS female reports that lesbians occur about 10%, the same percentage as the general population. But only ignorance places CAIS as anything other than females, they just happen to be an XY female. Indeed, It was because of conditions such as these that the Olympic committee dropped the “chromosome test qualification” in 1990, simply because 1 in 400 women were getting negative results; and having to face the media storm of “it’s a man!” before being cleared by doctors as females (ALL females competitors who tested negative in recent Olympics were cleared by doctors as females). Some competitors, after the initial negative test results were so traumatized, that they dropped out of sports entirely (like sprinter Eva Klobukowska who had XXY chromosomes; another intersex condition).

There are about 16 different intersex conditions. AIS is merely one of them. Some CAIS women are already married and adopted children before they find out thier condition (remember the doctors that told them they had a "bad uterus" and removed the testes) - there are equivilant intersex conditions for gender identified males, I know one who is a minister, and has adopted children, been in a marriage for 30 years and though the only testosterone in his body comes from an injection and his chromosomes may or may not match those of other "men" to somehow try to make his life into "gay marriage" would merely be a display of ignorance. First off, the term "gay marriage" implies a sexual orientation - and simply this - there IS a different between gender identity and sexual orientation. When you wake up in the morning you expect when you look in the mirror to see a) a male or b) a female - this is your gender identity. If you expect to see A and you see B reflecting back - then you have what is referred to as Gender Identity Disorder - go see a doctor and they will refer you to a specialist to determine whether this is a result of a pre-existing intersex condition, a transseuxal condition or a side effect of another condition (for example other diseases can produces this feeling as a side effect, specifically Schizophrenia).

Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to (people like Johnny Depp and Angelina Jolie excepted, who seem to be attractive to both sexes) - if you find yourself interested/aroused/wanting to share your life with a) someone of the same gender identity/sex then this is referred to as being "gay" - thus "gay marriage" is one between two people of the SAME gender identity. Unless of course Christians again want to ignore thousands of doctors and the olympic committee and make some sort of pronouncement that while simplifying the world for them, makes pain and havoc for others.

The main concern for doctors with intersex, ambigious genitalia and other similar conditions is for the welfare of thier patient - history has shown that this is BEST served by matching the gender identity of the person to the body (which is why many doctors wait a few years after birth before doing any surgery) - simply doing a chromosome test and chopping and constructing an outcome IS not the best solution (especially since two rare intersex conditions create bodies that produce both the XX and XY chromosomes from different parts of the body - I guess we cut them in half? Also, there are 6 people currently alive who have BOTH fully functioning genitalia).

Medically and historically, diversity WILL occur in humans, and DOES already - it is simply that most people are unaware of these and other condition, and in that ignorance, may make assumptions or say things which are bigotted or emotionally harmful.

In an aside, India has already aborted 5 million babies based on gender (female) and created a new test to tell the gender of the fetus earlier on; also Dr. Charles Rosselli of Oregon is already trying to alter fetuses of sheep to turn them from gay to straight - with potential human applications.
Thanks for the info, mpshiel. I was talking about genetic manipulation of embyros with more common chromosonal makeups, but, as you know, I am always happy to talk about intersexuality.

God bless.
 
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mpshiel

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I must misunderstand the OP then because intersex can be where the chromosome is altered, or split, or doubled or where an inabilitity to absorb certain components produces XX males, and XY females - essentially embronic alternation by natural causes - since this already exists - why would the need exist to create more?
 
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divalishous

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i hope this not off topic, for that is not my intention. But for anybody who believes that homosexuality is a choice, then please tell me, when did you choose to be heterosexual?
The first time that you were attracted to someone else, did you have to make a tough decision, "Hmmm Bobby or Kate, oh I just don't know."???
 
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akaibara

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That's what I thought...the embryo mutates in about 50% of the cases and then, presto, you have a male!

Honestly...I've never thought about this issue. It's an interesting question though.
You don't get males through mutations...it's by what chromosomes they have.
 
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Waiting for the Verdict

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I must misunderstand the OP then because intersex can be where the chromosome is altered, or split, or doubled or where an inabilitity to absorb certain components produces XX males, and XY females - essentially embronic alternation by natural causes - since this already exists - why would the need exist to create more?
No, you did not misunderstand it. At least, I don't think you did. But I was talking specifically about artificial genetic manipulation. Of course, intersexuality makes things even more complicated for members of the religous right, but I wanted to just give them one insurmountable problem at a time.:D
 
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