transfers

[shadistarr]

So I hear transfers are coming out soon. How's everyone feeling about them?

 

[BoazB]

So I hear transfers are coming out soon. How's everyone feeling about them?

Shadistarr, is this refering to the moving of officers to new appointments?

 

[Rebirth In Flames]

Yea, we got about 2 weeks until we know if our Corps officers are pack'n up and ship'n off! It's an exciting time! (=

 

[TheDag]

doesn't affect us as we don't have any officers at our corps. We have a soldier who is employed by the army to lead the corps so I don't think they can move him around easily. In any case they wouldn't mov ehim at the moment for persoanl reasons.

 

[shadistarr]

yeah, I'm talking about moving officers to new appointments. It will be interesting to see what happens at my corps

 

[BoazB]

Speaking from an officer-perspective, it depends on your personality, and also the circumstances. Some guys want something new, some go throigh incrdible stuff and pray for a move (sometimes the soldiers of the corps pray for a move too ). One guy I know would refuse to discuss who might go whereb/c his nerves can't take it. Some guys hope to staybc there is so much they still need to do.

In South Africa, you can have a good chance at guessing b/c the territory is so small (yet if officers come from overseas, that throws all the theories out).

How do I feel about it - well they tell me after it has happened. Life goes by , and I'm not going to worry about a system where nothing is forever, and people arealways moving.

I also think its not a good idea asking for a specific appointment. Sometimes they look like heaven, and when you get there you realise its Hell Citadel LOL

I've heard before guys saying what they will do when they get this or that appointment, or that they can do it much better than the last person... and most times they crash and burn.

 

[shadistarr]

The idea of corps officers being transfered was something (and still is at times) difficult for me to be at peace with. I come from a non-denom. background, so the idea of having a pastor transfered away from his church was a really difficult idea for me to grasp. I've come to terms (for the most part) with the idea of transfering, and I can see the good in it. My concern is that sometimes transfering officers can be used as a way to avoid healthy conflict which becomes very unhealthy if not delt with. I suppose that's where faith that the "higher-ups" are being prayerful in the decisions they are making.

 

[mac8]

I've certainly seen a perspective since I came back in 2003.

It hasn't left me feeling positive about the system the way it is, but the problem seems to me to go deeper than officer moves and into the whole way we do church. I can see plenty of signs of hope and good stuff happening, but changes ahead due to the decline of so many congregations in the UK.

Blessings
E.

 

[BoazB]

I think in the early days, the transferring of people was b/c there was no Salvation Army there, so they were sent. Now we ahve all these Headquarters posts, and guys are always moving up the pipeline b/c posts need to be filled.

In those cases, some guys so love being pastors, that it is really difficult for them to go on to HQ.

 

[mac8]

I can understand that Boaz.

I think the longer I'm a soldier the more passionate I am about being a soldier, and the more convinced I am this is where it's at. One thing officer moves do is actually prevent incarnational ministry, because officers can't put down roots properly and become part of a local community in a permanant sense.

If I look into the future of the army here in the UK I can imagine what soldiers will be doing as the church recovers by the grace of God, but I am a lot less sure what officers will do -I'm sure they will be used by God in a resounding way, but I am just not sure how. All I can see is their role fundamentally changing as the forms and structures of church change in order to grow and become missional again.

The sort of new churches being planted at the moment in the UK would surely find the whole concept of a minister being sent to/removed from them by a third party, so alien as to be incomprehensible - unless I've completely misunderstood what is happening.

Maybe Alan Hirsch is right that we will need apostolic leadership in the form of 'roving theologians', making sure that small churches stay on track theologically and remain missionally engaged in an effective way.

Is the army growing in South Africa?

Blessings,
E.

 

[shadistarr]

One thing officer moves do is actually prevent incarnational ministry, because officers can't put down roots properly and become part of a local community in a permanant sense.

E.

I agree with you. I'm a big believer in incarnational ministry, I've seen the beauty and growth that can come out of long term ministry, where you can invest in the community as well as your church body. Perhaps I see this from a very youth development persective, in that youth are so greatly affected by people coming and going out of their life. When the officers have such a strong tie to the youth of the church and then they have to leave after becoming role models and positive influences it can be difficult for them to build trust with new adults. This idea is probably the same with many adults.

The whole idea of transfers is still something I have to reconcile.

 

[mac8]

If the church in the West recovers I can't see it happening in anything other than incarnational ministry, and from the bottom up. But our grass roots layer of church isn't equipped or trained, and our permissing giving structures are designed in such a way as to assume a hierarchy and hamper change, innovation and creative approaches to conflict transformation.

The present model of officership seems laden with problems and pretty much incompatible with any model of church other than established 'come to us' attractional churches which are failing all around us. There are the intrinsic difficulties of hierarchical churches producing passive members, engrained passive aggressive behaviours, and a general sense of disengagement amongst those at the bottom of the ecclesial food chain.

But imagine change taking hold at grass roots level and church growth being stimulated - imagine strong and sustained growth in the chaos of incarnational and fresh expressions of church. Could our system cope? I think structurally it might, but culturally I reckon it would go into meltdown. What do you think?

To take up your other point, it strikes me that trustbuilding is pivotal to the entire health and survival of the church. Almost everyone who walks through our doors, officers included, have issues of trust impairment, some with humanity in general, many with the church specifically. Thank God we are now finally trying to attend to child protection, but making church a safe gathering for everyone is more than just that.

Blessings
E.

 

[TheDag]

I agree with you. I'm a big believer in incarnational ministry, I've seen the beauty and growth that can come out of long term ministry, where you can invest in the community as well as your church body. Perhaps I see this from a very youth development persective, in that youth are so greatly affected by people coming and going out of their life. When the officers have such a strong tie to the youth of the church and then they have to leave after becoming role models and positive influences it can be difficult for them to build trust with new adults. This idea is probably the same with many adults.

I'm not trying to be rude or insulting but this seems to suggest that the officers are the only ones who can do incarnational ministry. When leading a church is a job then you can come and go but for people who live in the area they are the ones who are likely to be staying. If they provide a role model and support then when the officers are moved (they should explain they are being moved) then the others are there to provide the support. A officer should be enabling others to minister primarily in my opinion. That does not mean they can't go out and minister tho.

 

[BoazB]

If the church in the West recovers I can't see it happening in anything other than incarnational ministry, and from the bottom up. But our grass roots layer of church isn't equipped or trained, and our permissing giving structures are designed in such a way as to assume a hierarchy and hamper change, innovation and creative approaches to conflict transformation.

The present model of officership seems laden with problems and pretty much incompatible with any model of church other than established 'come to us' attractional churches which are failing all around us. There are the intrinsic difficulties of hierarchical churches producing passive members, engrained passive aggressive behaviours, and a general sense of disengagement amongst those at the bottom of the ecclesial food chain.

But imagine change taking hold at grass roots level and church growth being stimulated - imagine strong and sustained growth in the chaos of incarnational and fresh expressions of church. Could our system cope? I think structurally it might, but culturally I reckon it would go into meltdown. What do you think?

To take up your other point, it strikes me that trustbuilding is pivotal to the entire health and survival of the church. Almost everyone who walks through our doors, officers included, have issues of trust impairment, some with humanity in general, many with the church specifically. Thank God we are now finally trying to attend to child protection, but making church a safe gathering for everyone is more than just that.

Blessings
E.

At present, this is my aim - to put ordinary soldiers and friends into ministries, wind them up and set them going... That it vertually be officer free. This also sets the officer free for all sorts of other stuff. Hopefully in years to come, other officers will come to the appointment and fid a host of things happening that they personally do't have to restart or revive, or if they dont like that minsitry or the officer who started it, dump it .

 

[mac8]

Yes, this is one of the most alienating aspects. Why should I as a soldier get engaged in something like a fresh expression or incarnational ministry locally if in a few years time a new officer is going to come in who knows little or nothing about our community and 'dump it'. I mean why would any member get involved in ministry in that kind of situation? And more to the point, how could I with any integrity call young people into such a situation and tell them this is your church, if in fact it is not going to be under their control at all, depending on the leadership style of the next officer and whether he or she decides to respect their degree of autonomy?

If the members of a corps are going to do the incarnational ministry they need to own it fully together with everyone involved and be together responsible for the decision making in it - not an officer who is not properly part of the group. But the group also needs a healthy accountability - so how is that to be set up?

We need a paradigm shift in our church culture to allow for innovation. I mean the problem is coded into the way we are set up.

Blessings
E.

 

[shadistarr]

It's so amazing to hear all your thoughts. I love the idea of having a self sustaining church body that can create and uphold ministries that are relevant to their community (both church and surrounding). It would be amazing to see all officers try to foster a church body, however it takes a lot of trust and humility to allow that to happen. I can't speak as a salvationist, but I could see that taking a lot of time to adopt a mission such as that. As with all things, it must be both a grass roots and leadership led initiative. It would take having the right leadership to encourage growth in that direction. I love the Army's strength in tradition, but how do you unite tradition with such a radical change? To gain one would we lose the other?

 

[shadistarr]

announcements were postponed until Tuesday for my Division, if not Territory!

 

[ChristInAction]

well I'm in australia & we do ours at the end of that year so ours long over. we didnt get any new ones but it would have been nice to. Ian & Viv are great but arent helping the youth at all.

 

[shadistarr]

Our corp captains are being transfered

 

[BoazB]

Our Territory (Southern Africa) are trying to start The Salvation Army in Namibia. We would normally only have moves at the end of the year, but to make the Namibia thing happen, we are having moves in June as well.