Transexuality ethical or unethical?

[TheCrimson]

what are your thoughts on this topic?

 

[Mling]

On transsexuality itself--it just is. It is a condition in which a person exists. Disorder/identity, something. Neither virtue nor vice.

Sex reassignment surgery: more complicated. Here's my take. I have a few friends online who are transsexual, and one who I know in person. The one who I know in person (I'll call her L), would have died had she not been able to transsition. She was expressing violent rage for her own body, to the degree that counciling could not match. Her mother went to bed every night wondering if L would be alive in the morning. If she had not been able to transition, she would have either deliberately committed suicide, or been so devoid of a will to live, and so hateful of her own body, that she would have become reckless and careless, eventually killing herself "accidently."

People can argue about abstract notions of morality till they're all blue in the face. I understand both sides, but I see the debate as sort of pointless. What it comes down to is this: my friend is alive and I support that without hesitation.

(The same cannot be said of a friend of hers, also trans, but lacking the support that L has. The details of her death were never really revealed, but the police ruled it a suicide.)

 

[susanann]

Ethical?

What do you mean by "ethical"?

Are you sure that is the word you want?

IF so, then on the one hand, they are truely ethical, because despite what society says, despite being harrassed, despite the mental and physical pain, despite being ostracized, discriminated against, etc. they are true and honest in presenting themselves as the sex they identify themselves as.


On the other hand, ethics implies choice, but they really dont have a choice, they have to reassign their sex in order to be themselves. They are driven by it, it is not a choice, it is not a moral decision. No one, nobody, nada, zilch, would ever get a sex change unless they were born a transexual. You cant persuade, or tempt, anyone to switching their sex if they were not born a transexual.



I dont think God cares at all if you are male or female, salvation, heaven, and service to God is available to God whatever sex you are, whatever sex you were born as, whatever sex you switch to. Are you asking if God was "ethical" in making transexuals? Everyone is born different, some healthy, some with defects, some with congenital medical conditions, etc. Who are we to question whether God is ethical just because someone, everyone, is born different?


Finally, there is the biology of it. Some transexuals are xxy, or xyy, or some other variation, and we also see differences in the hypothalamus. Most likely we will see other biological differences as more studies are done. How people are born, what genes they have, what brain structures, what hormones, etc. are not a question of ethics.

 

[Mling]

No one, nobody, nada, zilch, would ever get a sex change unless they were born a transexual

Not to be really picky, but there actually are people who would...fetishists and people who are very confused, people who were raised to think that the other sex is better...when you're talking about human variation, quirkiness or pathologies, there is no such thing as "nobody--" no matter how outlandish something seems, there is always a "somebody" who fits it. There's a whole battery of (rather stringent) tests you have to go through to determine if you are truly transsexual before beginning transsition. A lot of people who wanted to transition find that, with some counciling, they are able to reconcile their body with their identity. Without the counciling, they might have sought out other venues for SRS (for lack of a better term, underground chop shops), and then regretted it later.

 

[susanann]

Not to be really picky, but there actually are people who would...fetishists and people who are very confused,

Yes, you are being very picky, and off topic.

Of course there are always sickos, the mentally ill, etc. who want to amputate themselves, cut off a leg and an arm, masochists, people who think they are Napolean, or who talk to themselves, or whatever. Normal discussion on any topic in this forum assumes we are not talking about exceptions, sickos, oddities, etc.

What of course I meant was any normal mentally capable person. People in your church. People you work with, your friends and neighbors, etc.

We are talking about mainline normal transexuals, just regular people wanting to live normal lives and fit into our society.

 

[intricatic]

Depends. Do you mean as in the fetishistic form of transexuality, or do you mean genetic androgyny?

 

[Mling]

fetishistic form of transexuality

True transsexuality is, by definition, not fetishistic. I think you are confusing it with transvestitism--a fetish in which a person derives pleasure from dressing as the opposite sex.
Transsexuals generally do not have genetic abnormalities (at least, not relevent one's...nothing is stopping somebody who is TS from also having, say...Down Syndrome), but autopsies of brains of people who are TS do reveal physiological differences, and simply considering the behavior of children who later come out as TS suggests that those differeneces are present from birth. Most of my TS friends had cross-gender traits starting almost in infancy (picking up noticibly "feminine" language patterns, when the father was around and also talking.)

 

[sgrimsley]

I don't think we can term transexuality as "normal." God doesn't make mistakes, people make mistakes. Somewhere their gender identity got mixed up during early stages of child development. With a few biological exceptions (feminine testicular disorder-- whatever that one is where testicals never fall out of the abdominal cavity, thus producing low levels of testosterone, confusing the gender identity of the individual) of course.

 

[intricatic]

True transsexuality is, by definition, not fetishistic. I think you are confusing it with transvestitism--a fetish in which a person derives pleasure from dressing as the opposite sex.
Transsexuals generally do not have genetic abnormalities (at least, not relevent one's...nothing is stopping somebody who is TS from also having, say...Down Syndrome), but autopsies of brains of people who are TS do reveal physiological differences, and simply considering the behavior of children who later come out as TS suggests that those differeneces are present from birth. Most of my TS friends had cross-gender traits starting almost in infancy (picking up noticibly "feminine" language patterns, when the father was around and also talking.)

I think it can run both ways, but that's from my own experiences. I don't mean people who simply enjoy dressing the part, but men who want to become women (and vice versa) for either psychological issues spawned from life events, or for purely sexual reasons that could also fall under the first category... I usually separate the two because they are two distinctly different things.

 

[lilymarie]

Well no one wants to see someone die over this issue.

I don't see this as an ethical question per se because if it's legal and they go through all the stages of the therapy... then the experts are handling the responsibility of it all, hopefully appropriately.

I could imagine this would be a gut wrenching experience for the family and the person going through this.

As far as from a Christian Philosophy aspect... I don't feel qualified to answer.

I would think it is best, if they are professing Christians, to pray and pray and pray and be long-suffering (patient) about this decision, and to also be in counsil with their church's leaders. In other words, be seeking Christian counseling as well as secular counseling if they are professing Christians... because the Christian philosophy is HIS will be done, not ours.

But, with that said, I think this is a very sad issue to begin with and no one should seek suicide over it. That would be wrong for society to encourage in any way.

So, I have to go with just a generalized ethical view. If this is legal and they've gone through all the therapies... than I don't really see it as an ethical question in and of itself.

 

[susanann]

Transsexuals generally do not have genetic abnormalities (at least, not relevent one's...


autopsies of brains of people who are TS do reveal physiological differences, ......

),

We dont know that.

Genetics is in its infancy. There is more about genetics that we dont know, than what we do know.

My prediction is that someday we will find genetic links to transexualism. There is obviously a strong unknown biological force in these people which is more powerful than gonadal hormones.

The brain autopsies are also inconclusive - not enough data, yes, there are differences in the brain, but we dont know why, we dont know if the changes in the brain was affected by their taking of hormones during their life.

 

[susanann]

I think you are confusing it with transvestitism--a fetish in which a person derives pleasure from dressing as the opposite sex.

Transvestism, is an entirely different condition.

Transvestism, is by definition, trans (cross) vestism (dress). Anyone who cross dresses is a transvestite, with or without sexual pleasure. In fact, in most cases, most people who cross dress, do not get any sexual pleasure out of it.

Transvestism, is also, depending on how you look at it, either (1) nearly extinct, or (2) the generally accepted pervasive mode of dress of nearly everyone in America, since males and females now dress nearly exactly alike (shirts and pants/jeans and sneakers).

Most male-to-female and most female-to-male transexuals dress the same as non-transexuals: shirts, pants/jeans, and sneakers is their usual mode of dress.

If you ever run accross a transexual, their mode of dress will appear to be totally normal.

 

[susanann]

, but men who want to become women (and vice versa)

........this a separate condition.

When we speak of transexuals, we usually mean people who think of themselves as other than their birth sex.

"Switching" their sex, reassigning their sex, is something they HAVE to do, not something that they want to do. In nearly every case, they do not "want" their condition, they do not want to switch sexes. If they could take a magic pill that would make them normal, they would take it.

On the other hand, there is a small subset of people who "want" to be the other sex - females would would prefer to be males, and males who would prefer to be females, for whatever reason. This different group, a distinct and different subset, KNOW that they are the sex that they were born with, but want to change it.

A female who "wants" to be a male ( and vice versa) even though she thoroughly understands that she is not a male, she understands that she was born a female and is a female, is no different than someone "wanting" to be a doctor, even though he never went thru medical school, or a person wanting to be a basketball star, even though he plays terrible, etc.

(A true transexual is not changing what they feel they really are.)

 

[imind]

I don't think we can term transexuality as "normal." God doesn't make mistakes, people make mistakes. Somewhere their gender identity got mixed up during early stages of child development.

it made not be 'normal' in the sense that it happens frequently, or with any regularity, but it does happen. i don't think anyone is suggesting its gods fault, but if genetics has anything to do with it, then its clearly not the person's choice, or even if other biological factors come into play, like possibly with homosexuality, which is clearly not a choice.

it happens. i don't see this as being something we can assign the terms ethical/unethical to.

 

[susanann]

I don't think we can term transexuality as "normal." God doesn't make mistakes, people make mistakes. Somewhere their gender identity got mixed up during early stages of child development. With a few biological exceptions (feminine testicular disorder-- whatever that one is where testicals never fall out of the abdominal cavity, thus producing low levels of testosterone, confusing the gender identity of the individual) of course.

True transexuals are born that way, same as a person being born with blonde hair, or green eyes, or a birth defect.

Testosterone or estrogen levels has NOTHING to do with it, in fact, many male to female transexuals have high counts of testosterone, and many female to male transexuals have high levels of estrogen.


Most people, nearly all people with abnormal levels of sexual hormones, are NOT at all confused as to what sex they are.

Lastly, we do have lots of data showing that child development has nothing to do with transexualism. We have WAY too many cases where brothers and sisters, raised exactly the same way, have no indication of transexualism at all.

 

[susanann]

it made not be 'normal' in the sense that it happens frequently, or with any regularity, but it does happen. i don't think anyone is suggesting its gods fault, but if genetics has anything to do with it, then its clearly not the person's choice, or even if other biological factors come into play, like possibly with homosexuality, which is clearly not a choice.

it happens. i don't see this as being something we can assign the terms ethical/unethical to.

It is as much: "God's fault" as a birth defect from clean living parents.

I agree and predict that we will someday find a biological reason for homosexuality.

 

[susanann]

Well no one wants to see someone die over this issue.

Actually they do.

There are large numbers of suicides among transexuals, but also large numbers of transexuals who are murdered each year.

There are large numbers of people who either wish transexuals would commit suicide, or, if that fails, who will beat them and kill them.

 

[*Starlight*]

There's nothing unethical about transsexuality...

 

[intricatic]

........this a separate condition.

When we speak of transexuals, we usually mean people who think of themselves as other than their birth sex.

"Switching" their sex, reassigning their sex, is something they HAVE to do, not something that they want to do. In nearly every case, they do not "want" their condition, they do not want to switch sexes. If they could take a magic pill that would make them normal, they would take it.

On the other hand, there is a small subset of people who "want" to be the other sex - females would would prefer to be males, and males who would prefer to be females, for whatever reason. This different group, a distinct and different subset, KNOW that they are the sex that they were born with, but want to change it.

A female who "wants" to be a male ( and vice versa) even though she thoroughly understands that she is not a male, she understands that she was born a female and is a female, is no different than someone "wanting" to be a doctor, even though he never went thru medical school, or a person wanting to be a basketball star, even though he plays terrible, etc.

(A true transexual is not changing what they feel they really are.)

There are certainly tragic cases where gender is ambiguous due to genetic factors, but the question of ethics implies that there is a choice involved in the topic in question. I don't know anyone who would say that a person suffering from hermaphroditism is being amoral for opting to have a gender reassignment, but it does become an ethical and a moral question when it doesn't conform to that standard. To say "...there is a small subset of people who "want" to be the other sex..." does imply one of two things, either 1) that this subset is smaller than the already small number of natural hermaphrodites, or 2) that this is a different group entirely. I'd question any idea that either of these two groups are fundamentally more common than the other.

It also speaks to something innate to gender roles as a whole. In other words, these people are uncomfortable because of a deep-seated and natural desire to conform to a different role than they were raised within. Liking pink over blue, having preference for frilly lace instead of dirty blue jeans, liking cats more than dogs, etc.. but more to the root of the issue, they identify with a different gender role than they physically constitute a part of. My question is whether gender is innate, or whether it's purely preferential. Is it aesthetic, or is it inherent? In my opinion and experience, it's a bit of both.

Obviously, for those who have a natural disorder from birth due to chromosomal variations, the answer isn't that it's simply preferential, but that this is an aspect of who they are, and they deserve to be who they are. There's some natural tendency towards relating to the world a certain way, and relating to other people a certain way that is inherent to who they are, and whether their physical gender reflects this or not, it's how they are. This is also something that's been known, to some degree, since birth in many cases and not simply a condition that was realized later in life. There are people who identify as male, who are physically reflected as male, but have a preferential disposition towards being female for fetishistic reasons (and vice versa). In those cases, I'd say it is a question of ethics and morality. One group is naturally inclined towards a gender they may not have been born with and perhaps a doctor made a mistake in the delivery room, or some other factor beyond their control intervened to make them that way, while the other is simply acting on fetishistic, habitually reinforced desire. The problem is that the two groups tend to get mingled into ambiguity so nobody can tell the difference between them. I think it's generally good practice to make a distinction so the topic remains clear and concise rather than contributing to confusion.

So when I ask the OP:

Depends. Do you mean as in the fetishistic form of transexuality, or do you mean genetic androgyny?

I'm simply trying to clarify whether the OP is operating under the premise that there are no differences between the two, or whether the question is more relating to the fetishistic form rather than the natural genetic form.

 

[bliz]

I don't think we can term transexuality as "normal." God doesn't make mistakes, people make mistakes. Somewhere their gender identity got mixed up during early stages of child development. With a few biological exceptions (feminine testicular disorder-- whatever that one is where testicals never fall out of the abdominal cavity, thus producing low levels of testosterone, confusing the gender identity of the individual) of course.

I quite agree, God does not make mistakes.

Now then, what shall we call the "biological exceptions" you refer to? What shall we call children born with both male and female reproductive parts? With extra fingers and toes? With webbing between fingers, with cleft lips, without external noses, with a penis when they think they should have a vagina?

May we correct these - "biological exceptions" or is it God's will that those of us born in such conditions should remain in them?