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GillDouglas

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I'm still fairly new to these forums, but I have already come to realize a common trend. Of the contributors to many threads there is a group of those who consider themselves as atheists who were once Christian. In other words, if they had once truly accepted Jesus the son of God as their Savior, they are a Christian who has fallen away from God. In my opinion these individuals may not be what I would consider intellectual atheists, the ones who simply deny the existence of God and the teachings of the Bible, but rather affectional atheists, those who view God as an obstruction to something they want or desire.

C.S. Lewis said “All that we call human history — money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery — is the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy." I believe this is the struggle of our affectional atheist, and it is a tragedy. For those who have known God and turned away to serve another god (money, lust, etc.), I am truly saddened by this. How can you experience true happiness apart from God? What do you think you can accomplish on your own?

The problem is not that there are atheists in the world; the problem is that we all universally identify with this affectional atheism at the core of our motives. Every one of us is born with a twisted desire for happiness, and that desire must come at the cost of others. This is how I lived my life for many years, and regardless of how 'happy' I thought I was, it was at the expense of someone else because I was selfishly fulfilling my desires.

I think this is a fundamental flaw with all humans, and the broken world around us is proof of that flaw. Exploiting one another for personal happiness, however subtly it appears, eventually leads to personal conflict in many lives. James 4:1-12 tells us the reasons why this is. We lust for the pleasures we think will bring us happiness. We are blind to what will bring our hearts the satisfaction it longs for. We cannot see God’s beauty or enjoy the pleasures of God, so we seek to substitute it with the pleasures of the flesh. Our hearts are so backwards they are dead.

Having come to know the Lord later in my life I understand the fundamental need to fill our lives with some purpose and desire. He can give us true happiness by filling that void within us. Having come to know Him has given me a new purpose and new desires. At first I felt unworthy due to my selfishness and sin. But I have learned that I am still a sinner, and will continue to sin because I haven't reached that point of perfection yet, and never will. That is why we need Him, because He has already wiped that slate clean. God created us to have a relationship with Him, and to do that He designed us to seek.

Again, this is my opinion based on my beliefs and my understanding of an atheist who once was Christian. This does not apply to those who openly reject the existence of God, but the former Christian. To have been a Christian meant a belief in God at some point, and since God is unchanging the cause must have come from the believer. If I am wrong, I'd love some help understanding because I do not want this to happen to me.
 

GillDouglas

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So it is a matter of true 'circumcision' of the heart? It's not enough to say we are Christian, and even go through the motions of a Christian. We also have to have a change in our heart. A desire to do God's will instead of following our own desires. You believe that these atheists are those who never truly had the 'Damascene conversion'?
 
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Colter

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“The kingdom of heaven is also like a merchant seeking goodly pearls; and having found one pearl of great price, he went out and sold everything he possessed that he might be able to buy the extraordinary pearl.”

I'm sympathetic with Atheist who never really found the great pearl and decided to leave because what they found was inconsistent, untrue and incomprehensible. I did find the great pearl and want to know more about him.
 
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GillDouglas

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“The kingdom of heaven is also like a merchant seeking goodly pearls; and having found one pearl of great price, he went out and sold everything he possessed that he might be able to buy the extraordinary pearl.”

I'm sympathetic with Atheist who never really found the great pearl and decided to leave because what they found was inconsistent, untrue and incomprehensible. I did find the great pearl and want to know more about him.

As am I Colter. I was once like them, in a way. I knew of God, and I was constantly angry at Him for things that had been, what I considered, 'bad' in my life. I blamed Him for my mother's death, which was the hardest trial of my life over 10 years ago. My ignorance about God kept me from seeing the Truth and the purpose for the passing of my mother. God has a plan, and the atheist who knew of Him do not agree with it because they do not understand it or find His way 'unfair'.

I feel that the educated (learned about God) unbeliever is no better off than the ignorant one, maybe worse. Like the apostle Peter said is 2 Peter 2:21 "For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
 
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GillDouglas

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What is the debate you are proposing?
Do former Christians that are now atheists solely reject the teachings of the Bible (God created all, sent Jesus to cover our sins, other theological points) or is it more that they find the methods and practices of Christianity an inconvenience (being Christ like, giving ourselves up for something other than ourselves, etc.)?
 
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Conscious Z

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Do former Christians that are now atheists solely reject the teachings of the Bible (God created all, sent Jesus to cover our sins, other theological points) or is it more that they find the methods and practices of Christianity an inconvenience (being Christ like, giving ourselves up for something other than ourselves, etc.)?

Doesn't it seem possible that "former Christians" vary in their beliefs? I'm not trying to have the debate here, but it certainly seems likely that some former Christians rejected theism because of some intellectual disagreement with the existence of a god, whereas others were simply put off due to the practices of Christianity or their dislike for rules.
 
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GillDouglas

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Doesn't it seem possible that "former Christians" vary in their beliefs? I'm not trying to have the debate here, but it certainly seems likely that some former Christians rejected theism because of some intellectual disagreement with the existence of a god, whereas others were simply put off due to the practices of Christianity or their dislike for rules.
Defintely. I can agree that there's no box for all "former Christians" to fit in. I suppose my two boxes are a little constraining. Are there other reasons for losing faith that do not fit my proposed categories? I have no desire for a heated debate either, nor will I try to reconvert. I am only seeking answers to the drive behind one losing faith in God. What I don't want to hear is that a particular church, or specific Christians drove them away. People are horrible, broken, sinners and that especially goes for Christians. Why else would we need a Savior if we were 'perfect'?
 
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Conscious Z

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Defintely. I can agree that there's no box for all "former Christians" to fit in. I suppose my two boxes are a little constraining. Are there other reasons for losing faith that do not fit my proposed categories? I have no desire for a heated debate either, nor will I try to reconvert. I am only seeking answers to the drive behind one losing faith in God. What I don't want to hear is that a particular church, or specific Christians drove them away. People are horrible, broken, sinners and that especially goes for Christians. Why else would we need a Savior if we were 'perfect'?

I do not think this is a topic for a formal debate. It sounds like you are looking for a discussion rather than a debate about a specific motion.
 
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GillDouglas

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I do not think this is a topic for a formal debate. It sounds like you are looking for a discussion rather than a debate about a specific motion.
Then I should have this thread moved, if possible!
 
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Oafman

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People are horrible, broken, sinners and that especially goes for Christians. Why else would we need a Savior if we were 'perfect'?
Could we not be somewhere in between? I do not think of myself as 'horrible' or 'broken', but I'm certainly not perfect either. I think it's quite unhealthy for people to think of themselves in either of these ways.
 
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GillDouglas

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Could we not be somewhere in between? I do not think of myself as 'horrible' or 'broken', but I'm certainly not perfect either. I think it's quite unhealthy for people to think of themselves in either of these ways.
I agree with you Oafman. It is unhealthy for one to dwell on the nature of our being. The wickedness of man. As a Christian I understand that nature and why I am this way. Though at times I may feel unworthy in the eyes of God because I know the truth, I have no reason to worry. From the standpoint of my faith I can feel comfort knowing that despite this curse I am freed from it. I have no need to dwell on it because I am covered by the righteousness of Jesus.

Nobody is perfect, and not all act on their desires. I only know myself, and the need for God.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Admin Hat.

This tread started out as a debate proposal, but now it seems to have turned into a respectful discussion. As such, it is off topic here so I'm moving it to "Exploring Christianity".

Mark
CF Admin
 
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hedrick

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The atheists and agnostics that I know think the world doesn't look like a place with God in charge. I'm concerned that things like the postings above are in effect ad hominem attacks, saying that atheists have some spiritual reason for not wanting God. Those that I know aren't generally hostile, but rather don't see evidence.
 
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