Traditional Adventist's Beliefs

HoneyDew · Nov 5, 2005

LOL I hope Sassy gets you for that "pretty old" crack.

@Bondgirl, Cliff, Tall etc. I, too, have heard most of the above from one church member or the other -- even from my own mother, who has changed her viewpoints as the years have passed to make my eyes pop in amazement. I think that just because we haven't heard some of those claims, doesn't mean they haven't been said and that doesn't mean that we should take the list with a grain of salt. If I hadn't heard the like from my own family members, then believe me, I would scoff. But, I have. There really and truly are Adventists who believe those creed, and who live by them. Bondgirl isn't making up a fantastic list. There are some well-meaning but seriously misguided folk out there passing on their brand of urban legand.

TrustAndObey · Nov 5, 2005

HoneyDew said:
LOL I hope Sassy gets you for that "pretty old" crack.

@Bondgirl, Cliff, Tall etc. I, too, have heard most of the above from one church member or the other -- even from my own mother, who has changed her viewpoints as the years have passed to make my eyes pop in amazement. I think that just because we haven't heard some of those claims, doesn't mean they haven't been said and that doesn't mean that we should take the list with a grain of salt. If I hadn't heard the like from my own family members, then believe me, I would scoff. But, I have. There really and truly are Adventists who believe those creed, and who live by them. Bondgirl isn't making up a fantastic list. There are some well-meaning but seriously misguided folk out there passing on their brand of urban legand.

I'm preparing for the sassing Sassy is gonna give me. LOL

I agree that just because I haven't heard those things doesn't mean they haven't been said. Here's the thing though....I'd set a person straight right off the bat. I'd tell them that Ellen White is NOT equal with the Bible and I wouldn't be quiet about it either. I wouldn't hold it against the church, I'd feel the burden for the person who said it.

But yes, there are seriously misguided people in every denomination/church.

SassySDA · Nov 5, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
I'm preparing for the sassing Sassy is gonna give me. LOL

I agree that just because I haven't heard those things doesn't mean they haven't been said. Here's the thing though....I'd set a person straight right off the bat. I'd tell them that Ellen White is NOT equal with the Bible and I wouldn't be quiet about it either. I wouldn't hold it against the church, I'd feel the burden for the person who said it.

But yes, there are seriously misguided people in every denomination/church.

You young whippersnappers better WATCH IT, or I'll get my cane after you youngin's.

His comparison was not appropriate to what I had posted because, once again, he misunderstood what I posted.

I, too, believe and even know there are folks out there saying these things. When I asked "where do these MYTHS come from", I used the term "myth" because as far as I have been able to research out, NONE OF WHAT IS ON THIS LIST, nor the "Ellen White is held in higher esteem than God" comment is on the list of our beliefs or part of our doctrine..therefore to me, it is a MYTH, or "urban legend" if you will.

I don't have to see anything the same way as anyone else. If I have misused the term "MYTH", in someone else's opinion, they have a right to that opinion.

I'll leave it at that.

daveleau · Nov 5, 2005

Mod Hat On
SDA members,
Please stop posting in ways that belittle others, and if the post belittles others, then please report it rather than respond. Telling someone that they are not as experienced because they have only been in the church X amount of time is pretty belittling. Telling that person that they are belittling is likewise not the way to go.
Please take care in your words when responding to others. There are many from both sides of this theological argument that are bvreaking the rules. Since these are mild issues and since they have been responded to by reporters, there i going to be no action against posts prior to this official staff post.
Remember, no amount of religious orthodoxy or correctness can substantiate an unkind or harsh word (1 Cor 13:2-4).
Yours in Christ,
daveleau
CF Staff
Mod Hat Off

tall73 · Nov 5, 2005

daveleau said:
SDA members,
Please stop posting in ways that belittle others, and if the post belittles others, then please report it rather than respond.

Thanks Dave. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the beliefs, and to give the moderators a little better idea of them. so please let us keep it to that.

BondGirl · Nov 6, 2005

You comment is noted. However since you weren't in the churches, campmeetings, tent meetings, evangelistic efforts, "Bible" studies, or classrooms of SDA schools I have attended (SWAU, Oakwood College, & Andrews University- you may or may not have heard what I have heard. That's understandable. However to not take my list "seriously" means to me that you may have heard some of these statements and have been so used to hearing them that you didn't even let it faze you. (This also may not be true. IF so - pardon me...)

Yes I have heard all of the list said - NOT RUMORED, Not "she-heard" and then told me...but heard with my own ears. I left off several others....

In the end the church is not the same everywhere you go. Just because you are a respected 54 years of age doesn't mean that the statements are not being said.

Again, to not take this list seriously hurts no one but the other people in the church that hear the same things repeated ....

Cliff2 said:
I am 54 and I do not know where or when you have heard these things.

Was raised in the SDA Church and I honestly say most of what you have said I have never heard from the pulpit or even outside of the church building.

Are you sure most of them are just not rumours.

I do not believe any sane thinking SDA would ever say such rubbish.

I do not know of very many sincere SDA that do not believe that. EGW was a prophetess.

I do not take you list too seriously.

BondGirl · Nov 6, 2005

Dare I mention the "wardrobe" requirements of no short-sleeved dresses, open-toed shoes, or barrettes in little girls hair?

What about Men should not have beards/should have beards if they are to be Pastors/Elders/Deacons?

Seraph1m · Nov 7, 2005

BondGirl said:
You comment is noted. However since you weren't in the churches, campmeetings, tent meetings, evangelistic efforts, "Bible" studies, or classrooms of SDA schools I have attended (SWAU, Oakwood College, & Andrews University- you may or may not have heard what I have heard. That's understandable. However to not take my list "seriously" means to me that you may have heard some of these statements and have been so used to hearing them that you didn't even let it faze you. (This also may not be true. IF so - pardon me...)

Yes I have heard all of the list said - NOT RUMORED, Not "she-heard" and then told me...but heard with my own ears. I left off several others....

In the end the church is not the same everywhere you go. Just because you are a respected 54 years of age doesn't mean that the statements are not being said.

Again, to not take this list seriously hurts no one but the other people in the church that hear the same things repeated ....

There are a few verses in Prov that speak to this issue clearly... as the folk say, aint nothin but a thang. Next slide please.

Princessdi · Nov 7, 2005

I am coming a little ate to this thead I see, but here is my .02 cent anyway.

I, like Awesumtenor, was not given a choice. Unlike, him, however, I never made a decision one was made for me. When the "progressive" list was posted I agreed with much on thet list. However, when the traditional list was posted, I also agree with much of it. So my feelings on this pretty much align with Stormy, in that everyone doesn't fall so easily into one category or the other. My main point of contention is still that I was not given a choice, which is unfair, no matter what kind of spin you put on it.

Also, I found it very interesting, and disheartened, to hear that some members invalidate the experience of anyone else in the SDA church, simply because they had never experienced the same. IOW, it is not fair to invalidate the list because you have never heard of the things on it. She has in her experience, and she has absolutely no reaosn to lie to this forum about her experiences in this church. Now, I have not read all the posts, so if apologies or clarifications have already been made, then forgive my lateness.

But this is how this can work. BondGirl posted a list, I am pretty sure she and I live in different parts of the country, but I "have" heard those same things. Most, but not all, from the pulpit and the pews when they weren't refuted from the pulpit as they should have. I know she and I have never frequently the same church on the same day. If your time in the church or your travles within the church are limited, so will be you exposure to people, cultures, and more to the point of this thread, differing beliefs within the church. At this point I don't think any of us can deny that they do exist. It is just a matter of personal experience within the church, not a negative light being cast on any one's experience, just a testament of the scope of their exposure to the membership of the world church. So just because you have never seen or heard doesnt' mean it doesn't exist. It is just as simple as that. I am fully aware that mine is not the end all in the experiences in the SDA church just because I was born SDA.

I hope this does not sound angry, it is defintely not. just my 02 cent.

TrustAndObey · Nov 7, 2005

Instead of making lists, why aren't you going directly to the people that say these things and setting them straight? Why has it become an issue with the church instead of an issue with the people that say these things? I could be in the church 60 years and never hear this nonsense, but if I do, you better believe I will go directly to the person who says it.

SassySDA · Nov 7, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
Instead of making lists, why aren't you going directly to the people that say these things and setting them straight? Why has it become an issue with the church instead of an issue with the people that say these things? I could be in the church 60 years and never hear this nonsense, but if I do, you better believe I will go directly to the person who says it.

Amen and Amen, sister.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I may be a "newbie" but I am here to tell you that if I heard ANY of that nonsense coming out of any of the Adventist's mouths that go to my church or if I happen to be anywhere and hear it, I would definitely remark on it.

I would also like to say, at this time, that I don't understand this "slotting" of people in either one category or another here. In some of the posts, it sounds like they were literally told by the moderator(s) what they were or were not. If they were, why wasn't I? I haven't heard any of the Traditionals speak as if they were pidgeon-holed, so I'm just not certain what transpired there.

Can someone please enlighten me?

Cliff2 · Nov 7, 2005

BondGirl said:
Dare I mention the "wardrobe" requirements of no short-sleeved dresses, open-toed shoes, or barrettes in little girls hair?

What about Men should not have beards/should have beards if they are to be Pastors/Elders/Deacons?

Have you ever seen a photo of the early leaders of the work, just about all of them had beards.

Cliff2 · Nov 7, 2005

SassySDA said:
Amen and Amen, sister.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I may be a "newbie" but I am here to tell you that if I heard ANY of that nonsense coming out of any of the Adventist's mouths that go to my church or if I happen to be anywhere and hear it, I would definitely remark on it.

I would also like to say, at this time, that I don't understand this "slotting" of people in either one category or another here. In some of the posts, it sounds like they were literally told by the moderator(s) what they were or were not. If they were, why wasn't I? I haven't heard any of the Traditionals speak as if they were pidgeon-holed, so I'm just not certain what transpired there.

Can someone please enlighten me?

Can't speak for anyone else but I chose to go in the Traditional SDA Forum.

BondGirl · Nov 7, 2005

His name is Dr. Roland Hill, MDiv. He used to teach at Southwestern Adventist University. He was there for like 10 years or so...

I will find his information. As soon as I do I'm sure he will have no problems with me posting it here for any calls/emails/contact with questions, concerns, and comments. He is in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area....

He was one of the teachers that discussed in class different "aspects" of the SDA church. He.....HE was told when he attended Andrews University back in the day that he could not have facial hair. His wife was told not to wear short-sleeved dresses to church.

*(BTW: I also have been told not to wear short-sleeved [NOT sleeveless, but SHORT sleeved] dresses to church. I heard this from Dean Rita Jones. She used to be a dean at Andrews University for like blah, blah, blah years - but I encontered her at Oakwood College where she was a dean for approximately 15 years).

Also - what you said was noted. That very reason was even brought up by the students when he was questioned. At that time he brought in another "teacher" - Dr. Willis (who is probably still at Southwestern Adventist University) who "agreed" with him that although all the early founders wore beards (extensive, thick, and even long beards) - there was a time when "facial hair" was "frowned upon" in the SDA church.

Cliff2 said:
Have you ever seen a photo of the early leaders of the work, just about all of them had beards.

BondGirl · Nov 7, 2005

This is an honest question. I will give it the best answer possible. Some of this I began to hear as a young child. Like 12 to 14. Now you should know by now that although we "love" our youth - we are not the best at "listening" to them.

(We claim to "hear" them - but we do not "listen". There is a difference.)

Now. As for things I have heard as an "adult"...you can best believe that I have made a ruckus/stink/protest against those statements. One time I got the answer - "this is what I was taught...." Another time - "this is how it should be done...." The famous, "EGW said it was so...." and others. I get excuses. When asked for the actual quote/scripture/phrase - most say they will get it to me....and never do. Every now and then I have one that will actually scramble to "discern" a scripture/EGW writing - only to get the meaning all wrong.... (No braiding of hair....for example....)

I do say something. I DO. However when you are but a small voice - and others HEAR IT/LISTEN TO IT and do nothing..... what will happen? Nothing. BTW: I've even been told to "be quiet" before....(Christmas trees....)

So....now I list. Why? So I can see where we are eventually headed as a church. Many on my list deal with subjects that have always been heated in our church. It appears to not have changed much over the years...and that is sad.

TrustAndObey said:
Instead of making lists, why aren't you going directly to the people that say these things and setting them straight? Why has it become an issue with the church instead of an issue with the people that say these things? I could be in the church 60 years and never hear this nonsense, but if I do, you better believe I will go directly to the person who says it.

moicherie · Nov 7, 2005

Cliff2 said:
I am not about to tear down truth because I do not like it. God has revealed to us what is necessary for our salvation. What more do we need so that we can be saved?

I have seen no one tearing down truth in here have you?

moicherie · Nov 7, 2005

Cliff2 said:
I am 54 and I do not know where or when you have heard these things.

Was raised in the SDA Church and I honestly say most of what you have said I have never heard from the pulpit or even outside of the church building.

Are you sure most of them are just not rumours.

I do not believe any sane thinking SDA would ever say such rubbish.

I do not know of very many sincere SDA that do not believe that. EGW was a prophetess.

I do not take you list too seriously.

Not taking someone's else Adventist experience seriously can be considered - a. rude, b.polite, c. absurd , d. none of the above.

BTW I live in a different country from bondgirl but I have heard all of the above in Adventist churches from pulpit and congregation - I have been in the church since 1972 if you escaped the Al Quada elements of Adventism Praise God but some of us did not and got rid of the 'baggage' via the Holy Spirit so please do not belittle it.

Seraph1m · Nov 7, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
Instead of making lists, why aren't you going directly to the people that say these things and setting them straight?

Observation and suggestion: The above question is confrontational, condesending as well as judgemental in it's wording. The question makes it clear the person assumes, off the top, that the one who made the list has not taken the time to speak directly to people and setting things straight? The question, as it is worded, seeks confirmation of said assumptions.

It is clear that a number of people have completely misunderstood and some have misrepresented the point of the list: PLEASE Be AWARE that the list was presented as an EXAMPLE of the things some people have heard. One can not know the experience of another if one never "hears" what that persons experience is.

To avoid ones statements being seen as condescending and/or judgement, which lends itself to confrontations, in the future rather than asking "why aren't you" (this question assumes the person has not spoken up), ask "have you...?"

Rather than suggesting - "setting them straight" (which is condescending, and assumes it is ones right to set people straight), suggest instead that the person "ask for prayer and point out that they have not yet been impressed by the Holy Spirit to do what it is that person thinks they should". Keep in mind that every situation does not require one to set another straight.

Why has it become an issue with the church instead of an issue with the people that say these things? I could be in the church 60 years and never hear this nonsense, but if I do, you better believe I will go directly to the person who says it.

Observation and suggestion: Please avoid statements like the one noted above. Again, the question "assumes" that the person presenting the list, has an "issue with the church". In addition the comment like, "I will go directly to the person", also assumes that the person presenting the list has not taken the opportunity to address the things she has heard over the years with those who have stated them. Again, the list is only a series of examples of her personal experience, it is clearly not a indictment against the church The assumption is again incorrect.

Suggestions:

1). Avoid presuming you know the intent of the person speaking, simply based on assumptions about him or her.

2.) Take the time to realize that everything one person or another says is not said to or about you personally thus, you do not have to take it as a personal afront.

3.) Read over what is stated a few of times before responding at all to be sure one is speaking to the ISSUE the person is talking about in the OP and again avoid taking it or making the OP personal.

4.) Avoid making comments disregarding the experience of those who have had said experience. It shows ones complete lack of respect for the one you claim is your bro/sis., and such behavior speaks volumes to those who observer our conversation.

5.) When you know you "assumed" so and so was going to react to your statement a particular way, there is no benefit or edification from interjecting such into the conversation, especially when you acknowledge that you were wrong for making said assumption. If you feel you must share your assumptions, do so in PM.

6.), AGAIN, JUST ASK. Avoid making an assumption and avoid interjecting ones personal feelings into the OP. If we stays on the topic and avoids taking the OP personally one will not find himself/herself taking offense or being offensive.

Finally, realize that this form of communication does not always lend itself to clarity of thought. The fact that people have to had to explain what they say time and time again makes that very clear. If one would first pray before entering into conversation and leave his or her presumptions and or preconceived notions outside of the CF door we are all likely to be be pleasantly surprised.

(Bear in mind the items quoted have been used as an example and are not intended to offend or upset anyone. These observations and suggestions do not require a response. They are noted for ALL and we can all learn from the quotes, observations and suggestions noted. If I have offended anyone I apologize and please forgive me and, I thank you in advance)

May God grant us all the desire to put self aside, to hear and be obedient to the Holy Spirit when he speaks. May He give us a willing heart to submit to Him rather than our own flesh. In Jesus name, Amen and amen

Grace and Peace to you all through Christ Jesus

Cliff2 · Nov 7, 2005

BondGirl said:
His name is Dr. Roland Hill, MDiv. He used to teach at Southwestern Adventist University. He was there for like 10 years or so...

I will find his information. As soon as I do I'm sure he will have no problems with me posting it here for any calls/emails/contact with questions, concerns, and comments. He is in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area....

He was one of the teachers that discussed in class different "aspects" of the SDA church. He.....HE was told when he attended Andrews University back in the day that he could not have facial hair. His wife was told not to wear short-sleeved dresses to church.

*(BTW: I also have been told not to wear short-sleeved [NOT sleeveless, but SHORT sleeved] dresses to church. I heard this from Dean Rita Jones. She used to be a dean at Andrews University for like blah, blah, blah years - but I encontered her at Oakwood College where she was a dean for approximately 15 years).

Also - what you said was noted. That very reason was even brought up by the students when he was questioned. At that time he brought in another "teacher" - Dr. Willis (who is probably still at Southwestern Adventist University) who "agreed" with him that although all the early founders wore beards (extensive, thick, and even long beards) - there was a time when "facial hair" was "frowned upon" in the SDA church.

Do you think that the Church has lowered the standard by men shaving today?

When I fisr started work I worked for the Church in the Health Food Industry, (SHF).

That was in the late 60's and at that time no one was allowed to have a beard at work.

Partly due to health reasons, partly due to tradition.

A years went by and a group of us young fellows started to flex our industrial muscle and grew beards. We were young and just a little bit rebellious.

One of our group on this partivular day was told not to come into work the next day if he still had a beard on.

One of the foreman there said he would bring in a book the next day for us to look at.

We photo-copied a page that the leaders with heavy, long beards on and pinned it on the notice board.

By the time we got back into the workshop it had been taken down and taken to the office.

We never heard another word about us having to remove the beards.

I stress this was not the Church saying this but an arm of the Health Food work.

Cliff2 · Nov 7, 2005

moicherie said:
Not taking someone's else Adventist experience seriously can be considered - a. rude, b.polite, c. absurd , d. none of the above.

BTW I live in a different country from bondgirl but I have heard all of the above in Adventist churches from pulpit and congregation - I have been in the church since 1972 if you escaped the Al Quada elements of Adventism Praise God but some of us did not and got rid of the 'baggage' via the Holy Spirit so please do not belittle it.

I lived in Cooranbong in those days and was right in the middle of it all.

Believe me I have heard plenty but not not much of this material being claimed that has been said from the pulpit.

Some indidiuals may say it but even if it said from the pulpit it has never been official Church doctrine.

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