Tradition

[Korah]

Drama over, Peter is Cleopas.

No, Cleopas is the same as "Clopas" of John 19:25.
The other disciple is most likely one of his four sons, James, Joses, Judas, or Simon--but namely Simon from Lk. 24:34. (His son, being younger, ran on ahead of Cleopas.)
Korah

 

[lionroar0]

This is off topic but since you brought it up,
I will add the verses that are after verse 32 and quote them starting at verse 30

Luke 24
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

imo , that always seems kinda EO/CC ish to me.

Yes and that is Scripture and Tradition.

Also note the last sentence underlined.

They knew Him in the breaking of the bread.

That's the Eucharist.

Scripture and Tradition going hand in hand.

1. During the mass the Word is read
2. Jesus is made known in the Eucharist. (Not a remembrance)

Peace

 

[sunlover1]

Hello Sun,
I'm doing okay but I had a large kidney stone removed the other day and I'm still feeling the effects.

Sorry to hear that... but praise God that it wasnt worse and that
He comforts us in our trials.
I've never had one of those afaik, but i hear it's worse than labor
pains. Have had a couple of those

I think that we may be able to find some understanding of tradition if we look at "what is inspired".

Today we can get up in the morning, pick up our Bibles and say, this is the inspired word of God. But, lets put ourselves in the place of a turn of the 3rd century christian. What did he wake up to? He didn't have a Bible. What he did have was the "tradition" which was handed down to his Church by those that came before him.

Are you speaking of the Scriptures?

They had some a the writings or maybe all of the writings. To him, the ones which agreed with what was handed down to him were accepted as inspired, but there were some that he doubted. As an example, the Book of Hebrews was doubted into the 4th or 5th century.

And i can understand the confusion.

When someone rose up teaching something which did not match up with what was consistantly taught(tradition), the early christians relied on that tradition and the writings which they accepted to combat what they believed was heresy.

I believe that i do understand that part well enough.

So, when the Ecumenical Counsels met to determine which books were inspired and people were able to wake up in the morning and pick up a Bible or codex and say, "this is the word of God" were they supposed to cast aside all of which kept them together for 4+ centuries? No, tradition was and will always be an important part in those christians faith.

Yes if it doesnt match Scripture they might want to.
Otherwise no. There were many many things that were
believed and done 'traditionally' in the name of God.
Just because something is believed and even defended
by Christians, doesnt mean that it's pleasing to God.
And i'm not picking on 'catholic' members here. Any
denomination, even non denoms can and do have beliefs
and doctrine based on what they feel has just always
been accepted.
Me too. Often I will read a passage and think, "woah,
that's not at all what I thought it was. I've been
misreading that for years".
God does reveal things to us as we diligently seek him
out. The entrance of HIs Word does bring light. But His
Word does need to enter, that's where my responsibility
lies imo.

When others call those traditions, "man made", it can be offensive to them because those tradition meant so much to what their Church is today.

I understand that, but ... let's look at an example from the other pov
a moment. Seeing someone bowing to mary et al can be very very
offensive to me because iMo, that's an affront to my God.
So...
I dont worry so much about stepping on feelings as I do about loving
someone enough to share (WIBTB) the truth and pray for them.
And expect other's to do the same for me.

I am going through a dealy in my own personal life with
a church that my kids have been involved in. It's a protestant
church, and they're 'possibly' teaching something that's not
Scripturally sound.
Happens every moment of every day in every part of the world.
Long as we all keep running our mouths, rather than keeping a
tame tongue and an single eye, we'll keep missing stuff. (IMO)

To you and others, they may not be inspired, but to others, they are.

I hope I explained this in a christian manner because it is only meant to try an explain the mindset of how we got to where we are today.

God Bless,
Your fellow Christ lover,
Yarddog

[/quote]
You always do YD.
Hope i did too. But just to be sure let me say this,
I dont believe that the CC has any more or less error
in beliefs than any other church. And I dont believe that
i have any more or less understanding of God than you
do.
I believe we're all dust in the wind, trying to find nirvana
(just kidding... sorta)

Blessings and i will lift you up to Father.
sunlover

 

[lionroar0]

Do you know that there is a tradition that the story is in the form of, hmmm, drama/mystery?

Peter had denied the Lord three times.
The women report to Peter who comes and looks and marvels without understanding at the empty tomb and linen wrappings.
Two of them are later walking to Emmaus, which is NW of Jerusalem 7 miles (in the OT when the Tabernacle was set up, the trumpets were NW of the center to announce danger and travel time).
Jesus begins traveling with them and asks what's happening! They were sad, though.
One named Cleopas asks (with what is biting irony, as if he does know), are you the only one who doesn't know what happened?
Jesus goes along with them. They say, women among us went to the tomb this Sunday morning of the one who we thought would redeem Israel. It is empty and this is the third day.
The Lord rebukes them, foolish men, slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken. (Notice He does not agree with them; He says you are missing something.)
He explains from all the prophets concerning Himself from scriptures. (Notice here too He does not refer to Tradition, He only refers to scripture--I know you brought this up as an example, but it ain't in there. He does not say look at the Talmud, look at the opinions of the Sages.).

What He speaks is Tradition. What He refers explains about Himself in the Scriptures is Tradition. He Taught from the Scriptures about Himself. Which is what priests do during the homily today. They teach about Jesus from the Scriptures.

The Jews had the same Scriptures as Jesus did back then and rejected Him.

Also back then the meaning of Scripture is different then it is now. If He is using the word graphe it may also mean the Talmud or not.

The two, of course, want to hear more and ask Him to remain.
He takes the bread, blesses it, and gives it to them. (Notice here too that Jesus does not say this is My body--He is after all seated across from them and is now at the right hand of the Father.)
Their eyes were opened, they recognize Him, and He vanishes from sight.
They return to Jerusalem, found those gathered, and say, the Lord has really appeared to Simon.

They knew Him in the breaking of the bread. We know Jesus in the Eucharist, because it's His flesh and Blood.

How can a person know Jesus in the breaking of the bread when it's a remembrance?

Drama over, Peter is Cleopas.

It's a tradition. I agree with it; you may not.

My comments, however, we can discuss

Peace

 

[E.C.]

For those people who are just listing "Traditions" can you give the history of those "Traditions" - how and why they began and how they relate to God or to the Bible and how do they help to build up the Body of Christ.

Certainly

But I will have to do so briefly.

1) The canon of the Bible.

The canon of the Bible. Relations toward God and the Bible are self explanatory. The Bible was 'created', for lack of a better word, out of the Greek Septuagint for the Old Testament and the Four Gospels, some Epistles and Revelation for the New Testament.
There was no Bible for the first four or five centuries after Christ. I can not recall exactly when or where it was first "created" and bound together, but I do know why it was.
The Gnostics, groups of heretics, had been spreading false gospels throughout the world which resulted in evil things. The Church got together and thought "this is getting weird" and so as to protect the Church, as a collective whole, from false gospels, the Bible was "born".

2) Iconography.

Started by St. Luke. He wrote the first icons. In the... 8th century one of the Byzantine emperors asked the Muslims what he would have to do for them to become Christians. They said "destroy your icons". Well, about a hundred years later and after much bloodshed, sweat and tears (kudos to whomever gets the corny pop culture reference) it was deemed that icons are to be venerated because A) it proves the Incarnation of God as Man, i.e. Christ B) they help build one's spiritual life.

3) Divine Liturgy.

Too long! Short version:
1) First DL written by St. James the Apostle. Length of time: 5-6 hours.
2) Second DL written by St. Basil the Theologian during the... 4th century (?). Essentially the St. James, minus a number of litanies accumulating to a loss of about four hours. Length of time: about 2 hours.
3) Third DL written by St. John Chrysostom. Essentially the St. Basil minus a few more litanies and written sometime during his life, so about the 5th century. Length of time: about 90 minutes.
The DL of St. John Chysostom is used, I would say, during about 85% of the year. St. Basil's Liturgy is used during Great Lent and a number of feast days. St. James' Liturgy is used on his feast day unless you live in Jerusalem in which case I would recommend some really comfy shoes.

Why have a Liturgy? It is a guide of "how to" worship when gathered as a whole, as a Church or family, so to say. In my honest opinion, if God did not wish for man to worship in this way, than there wouldn't be a Divine Liturgy in the first place. Thus, it should be used. The Divine Liturgy pays a lot of attention to all three persons of the Trinity as opposed to politics. Thus it is good for the soul. It is the breaking of the bread and the sharing of the Eucharist.

4) the canons.

The canons are things such as "there shall be no blood in the altar" and "there shall be no more than one bishop per city". They are basically the documents of how things are to be governed administratively.

5) The Nicene Creed.

I'm sorry, but a mere paragraph would come no where near doing the Nicene Creed justice. Plus I am getting tired. Long day of working.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

....Seeing someone bowing to mary et al can be very very offensive to me because iMo, that's an affront to my God.....

I have a curious question: Are you offended when people bow to the Queen of England?

If not, why would you be offended at someone bowing the the Mother of God?

I don't think God is offended by that. And don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you are in a place to know what God is thinking.

 

[Laus_Deo]

I understand that, but ... let's look at an example from the other pov
a moment. Seeing someone bowing to mary et al can be very very
offensive to me because iMo, that's an affront to my God.

Is this kind of thing very very offensive to you and an affront to God?

All this man is doing is showing love and honor to a woman when he proposes.
That does not take anything away from God.

 

[MamaZ]

Are you bowing to Mary to ask her to marry you?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you bowing to Mary to ask her to marry you?

I have a curious question: Are you offended when people bow to the Queen of England?

I would never bow to the Pope or his Denomination. I think the U.S. should have a Queen ehehe

Revelation 18:7 As much as She glorifies herself and indulges, be giving to Her tormenting and mourning.
That in Her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a Queen and Widow not I am and mourning not I shall be seeing'.

Revelation 18:7 osa edoxasen eauthn kai estrhniasen tosouton dote auth basanismon kai penqoV
oti en th kardia authV legei kaqhmai basilissa kai chra ouk eimi kai penqoV ou mh idw

 

[katholikos]

Are you bowing to Mary to ask her to marry you?

We bow to her out of respect, for she is Mother of God, Queen of Heaven. I can think of no other woman - or no other human being for that matter - who deserves more respect than her.

If we can walk into a court room and call some guy "You Honor", and if some people can call their pastors "Reverend", then surely we can give the reverence due to the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I would never bow to the Pope....

Bowing to the Pope is not related to his role as pastor and shepherd, it is related to his role as a monarch of a sovereign state, just like the Queen of England is. It is inconsistant to be willing to bow to the Monarch of one country but not the Monarch of another

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bowing to the Pope is not related to his role as pastor and shepherd, it is related to his role as a monarch of a sovereign state, just like the Queen of England is. It is inconsistant to be willing to bow to the Monarch of one country but not the Monarch of another

The Pope is the Monarch in Italy not the U.S or Texas for that matter

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain man was rich and was in-slipped purple/porfuran and linen/busson making-merry down to a-day shiningly/lamprwV.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7306890&page=3
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

The Pope is the Monarch in Italy not the U.S or Texas for that matter...

1) No, he is the Monarch of Vatican City State

2) The Queen of England is not the monarch of the U.S or Texas either, but Amercans who have been knighted have bowed before her anyway

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1) No, he is the Monarch of Vatican City State

2) The Queen of England is not the monarch of the U.S or Texas either, but Amercans who have been knighted have bowed before her anyway

Ok......... Btw, I turned off show avatars ehehe.....

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Are you really 58 years old?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you really 58 years old?

Yes. I will be 59 in October.......

 

[Nadiine]

Ex. 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

I'm sorry, but to me, this looks crystal clear, not to make
any images and bow down in front of/to them.

Nevermind if you're literally worshipping it or who it represents.
Becuz the KEY here is what others see and what it looks like to
them.
IT LOOKS LIKE you're worshipping it/them as a god.

I think stumbling should be the focus here, not what you're
actually doing in your mind or heart.

 

[lionroar0]

Ex. 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

I'm sorry, but to me, this looks crystal clear, not to make
any images and bow down in front of/to them.

Nevermind if you're literally worshipping it or who it represents.
Becuz the KEY here is what others see and what it looks like to
them.
IT LOOKS LIKE you're worshipping it/them as a god.

I think stumbling should be the focus here, not what you're
actually doing in your mind or heart.

The words for image and graven image are two different things.

That is why there is the qualifer "graven" in front of the word image.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ex. 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

I'm sorry, but to me, this looks crystal clear, not to make
any images and bow down in front of/to them.

Nevermind if you're literally worshipping it or who it represents.
Becuz the KEY here is what others see and what it looks like to
them.
IT LOOKS LIKE you're worshipping it/them as a god.

I think stumbling should be the focus here, not what you're
actually doing in your mind or heart.

As long as they do not start walking

Reve 9:20 and the rests of the men who not were killed in these the blows not repent out of the works of the hands of them, that no they should be worshipping the demons and the idols of the gold and the silver and the brass and the stone and the wood, which neither to be seeing are able, nor to be hearing nor to be walking,

 

[Nadiine]

if you guys want to go ahead and do that, by all means,
continue.

I can't do it in any good conscience due to the verses.
I just don't grasp how much clearer God could say it.

It looks like today God has to spell everything out for us
using every justification a person might ever think
up for it

• If this,
• If that,
• If the other,
• If you,
• If he,
• If they,
• If it's before
• If it's after, . . . .
• unless this
• unless that,
• unless it's after,