Tradition?

[BjBarnett]

Well, seeing that no bible had been compiled at that point, Id say it was those things that were in Paul letters and such and things that he maybe didnt put in THAT letter (compared to say Romans).

Paul didnt write much in those letters to the Thessalonians.

So anything not written in THOSE letters to THEM that Paul say taught in Romans would have been ''by word'' to the Thessalonians.

okie dokie. i understand your position better now. so do you think that everything that jesus and the apostles taught are in the bible somewhere?

also care to show in the bible where it says that it is the sole authority?

 

[pm37]

faith and works lead to justification but its the works through the faith. faith without works is dead afterall.

How is it that your faith, or belief in Christ, should justify you before God?

Even the devils and damned souls believe in Christ.

How do you say that you have faith or belief in Christ, when you see not your need for Him?

You make no mention of His work, but of your own "works through faith". Please, clarify.

-pm

 

[YahwehLove]

okie dokie. i understand your position better now. so do you think that everything that jesus and the apostles taught are in the bible somewhere?

also care to show in the bible where it says that it is the sole authority?

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Were the letters compiled as they were being written?
Paul was supposed to write ''the bible is the ONLY authority" when there WAS no bible as he wrote

 

[BjBarnett]

its obivious to me you were wanting a vastly more complicated answer than I was willing to give but very well...

How is it that your faith, or belief in Christ, should justify you before God?

huh?

Even the devils and damned souls believe in Christ.

agreed

How do you say that you have faith or belief in Christ, when you see not your need for Him?

You make no mention of His work, but of your own "works through faith". Please, clarify.

-pm

are you saying that I dont see my need for Christ? thats pretty insulting.

im totally confused here. you asked how I thought a person is justified in front of God right? which is basically like saying your in good standing with God and I said through faith and works. but your wanting to know why I didnt say that Jesus died on the cross for me? I know that Jesus died on the cross for me. It was by that, that I can be justified. your gonna have to explain more on what your asking me cause im very weary on answering your question because it seems vague and sounds like a bait question.

 

[BjBarnett]

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Were the letters compiled as they were being written?
Paul was supposed to write ''the bible is the ONLY authority" when there WAS no bible as he wrote

haha YahwehLove I think are really gonna have to agree to disagree here because I was thinking the same thing but in my favor . for almost 400 years there was no bible so the church had to use tradition. if the tradition was valid then, then it must be valid now.

 

[YahwehLove]

haha YahwehLove I think are really gonna have to agree to disagree here because I was thinking the same thing but in my favor . for almost 400 years there was no bible so the church had to use tradition. if the tradition was valid then, then it must be valid now.

Right.

Thats been my point in a couple other threads.
There is no resolution to some of these issues as both sides see their side as the truth of the matter.

Id rather just say we dont agree on it and leave it at that.

 

[pm37]

your gonna have to explain more on what your asking me cause im very weary on answering your question because it seems vague and sounds like a bait question.

A bait question? This is plain doctrine. YOU said that YOUR FAITH, with works mind you, justified you before God. If this is YOUR CLAIM, then you should have an answer regarding it. All I am asking is:

How is it that your faith, or belief in Christ, should justify you before God?

Rewording

How does your faith make you justified before God?

You said that faith was one of the elements for your justification. All I am asking is how does it justify you? Also, how do your works justify you? You agreed with me that the devils and damned souls have faith, my question to you is, how is your faith different? Their faith did not justify them, so how does your faith justify you now? I'm just asking.

-pm

 

[pm37]

There is no resolution to some of these issues as both sides see their side as the truth of the matter.

Id rather just say we dont agree on it and leave it at that.

Yes, now you see. That is why I suggested that we should get to the root of the matter early on. We all know that the Catholic church has many traditions, and that their arguments for these traditions have been refined over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years by staunch Catholics. That is why I wished to talk about serious matters regarding salvation, such as how a man should be justified before God.

-pm

 

[BjBarnett]

maybe you should start another thread about this subject because I fail to see what it has to do with tradition.

A bait question? This is plain doctrine. YOU said that YOUR FAITH, with works mind you, justified you before God. If this is YOUR CLAIM, then you should have an answer regarding it. All I am asking is:

How is it that your faith, or belief in Christ, should justify you before God?

Rewording

How does your faith make you justified before God?

You said that faith was one of the elements for your justification. All I am asking is how does it justify you? Also, how do your works justify you? You agreed with me that the devils and damned souls have faith, my question to you is, how is your faith different? Their faith did not justify them, so how does your faith justify you now? I'm just asking.

-pm

i guess the correct answer would be that we are justified by our faith through our works (like I said a few posts ago). faith without works is dead and although the devils have faith that Jesus is real they dont have works and thus there faith is dead and so they are not part of the "elect"

 

[pm37]

maybe you should start another thread about this subject because I fail to see what it has to do with tradition.



i guess the correct answer would be that we are justified by our faith through our works (like I said a few posts ago). faith without works is dead and although the devils have faith that Jesus is real they dont have works and thus there faith is dead and so they are not part of the "elect"

But how!? How do your faith and your works justify you? Can you not see the question. Many damned souls [i.e. men who are in hell] had great faith, and had a great number of many wonderful works, and had all the visible spiritual tokens of earth, but they find themselves damned. What did they lack? Nevertheless, perhaps you are right, and new thread is needful. Although, I hoped to bring the question of traditions back into the discussion; however, it is not progressing thus and thus. Anyway, if you come up with an answer, you can PM me.

-pm

 

[BjBarnett]

But how!? How do your faith and your works justify you? Can you not see the question. Many damned souls [i.e. men who are in hell] had great faith, and had a great number of many wonderful works, and had all the visible spiritual tokens of earth, but they find themselves damned. What did they lack? Nevertheless, perhaps you are right, and new thread is needful. Although, I hoped to bring the question of traditions back into the discussion; however, it is not progressing thus and thus. Anyway, if you come up with an answer, you can PM me.

-pm

these men may of had great faith and done some great works but they died in a state of sin if they are in hell right now. you can have faith and you can have works but you cant have faith and works just a few times or something and expect to be saved. you have to be in a state of grace not a state of sin.

 

[pm37]

these men may of had great faith and done some great works but they died in a state of sin if they are in hell right now. you can have faith and you can have works but you cant have faith and works just a few times or something and expect to be saved. you have to be in a state of grace not a state of sin.

So, you press the issue. The Word of God list all men in a state of sin from birth. These men, as you claim, died in a state of sin; however, they trusted in their faith and works to be justified before God as you do now. Indeed, you say that they didn't have it enough. This can only lead to the conclusion that if they had it but a few times more then they would have secured their eternal state. Perhaps you can give a number of how many instances they should have had faith and works so to save them? All men are in this lost condition, and have fallen short of the glory of God, yet you claim that with enough faith and works one can rightly stand before the glory of God. Granted, grace is only given to the elect, but how are the elect justified (i.e. in a state of grace as you so put it)?

-pm

 

[YahwehLove]

.........

 

[sculpturegirl]

As long as tradition doesn't contradict the Word of God- what is the problem?

 

[pm37]

As long as tradition doesn't contradict the Word of God- what is the problem?

If it TRULY does not contradict the Word of God then there is no problem...the problem is when it does contradict the Word of God. I think you have simply restated the point that everyone's been belaboring for centuries.

-pm

 

[jdjr]

If it TRULY does not contradict the Word of God then there is no problem...the problem is when it does contradict the Word of God. I think you have simply restated the point that everyone's been belaboring for centuries.

-pm

then you must state where it contradicts the Word of God, so that we can have something to talk about

 

[YahwehLove]

then you must state where it contradicts the Word of God, so that we can have something to talk about

uh.
I think there are like 10 threads as we speak doing just that.
I dont think every single poster here needs to make a list of questionable areas of Tradition in order to make an observance.

 

[Yasha1]

No man can judge you on how and when to keep the sabbath, feast and what to eat, because the Almighty Yahh already made judement on how and when to keep the sabbath on the seventh day, as well as what to eat in Leviticus 11...

****
Luke 12

57Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Leviticus 18

4Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

5Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
****

He said let no man judge, this means you also, being that you're a man, because the Lord Yahh is our judge...



****
Psalms 50

6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

 

[Veritas]

So, you press the issue. The Word of God list all men in a state of sin from birth. These men, as you claim, died in a state of sin; however, they trusted in their faith and works to be justified before God as you do now. Indeed, you say that they didn't have it enough. This can only lead to the conclusion that if they had it but a few times more then they would have secured their eternal state. Perhaps you can give a number of how many instances they should have had faith and works so to save them? All men are in this lost condition, and have fallen short of the glory of God, yet you claim that with enough faith and works one can rightly stand before the glory of God. Granted, grace is only given to the elect, but how are the elect justified (i.e. in a state of grace as you so put it)?

-pm

Welcome PM to CF

As has already been requested of you, if you wish to discuss justification, please start a new thread. It is out of respect to the OP that you not highjack his thread. Otherwise, we have ways of dealing with these problems. Thanks!

 

[thereselittleflower]

As long as tradition doesn't contradict the Word of God- what is the problem?

I don't see a problem


Peace in Him!