Toxic masculinity.

[Cimorene]

Under the moral banner of equality?

As for why men are more harsh to men who act feminine, I think there are evolutionary reasons. Mainly the idea of feminine men trying to hog precious recourses. Men are supposed to be the protectors not the protected, men are more disposable than women, a man with feminine characteristics is probably seen as a biological threat to many men because such men are seen as taking away special protection from women.\

Not to mention possibly not fulfilling his duty to be a protector himself.

No, not under the moral banner of equality. There are probably evolutionary reasons as well as social ones for men being harsh on other men & boys who aren't as "manly" as they think they should be. Sometimes I think it's just an excuse to bully or be mean.

 

[MehGuy]

No, not under the moral banner of equality.

Uh yes, many of these hypocritical women try to claim a monopoly on the discussion of equality. Namely feminists. Most men who want to keep masculinity don't. They're upfront about it.

There are probably evolutionary reasons as well as social ones for men being harsh on other men & boys who aren't as "manly" as they think they should be. Sometimes I think it's just an excuse to bully or be mean.

Even if there are biological reasons, that doesn't make it an excuse. Just giving an explanation why men might be lagging behind when it comes to men and feminine roles. We have a lot more to psychological issues to address.

 

[Cimorene]

Uh yes, many of these hypocritical women try to claim a monopoly on the discussion of equality. Namely feminists. Most men who want to keep masculinity don't. They're upfront about it.

Ok, if that's how you feel about it. I was making a really simple point that from my own observation men are more likely to treat other men who don't conform to their ideas about masculinity harshly. I still acknowledged that women have done the same.

Even if there are biological reasons, that doesn't make it an excuse. Just giving an explanation why men might be lagging behind when it comes to men and feminine roles. We have a lot more to psychological issues to address.

I agreed with you that there are evolutionary reasons for it & added that there are social reasons too. Sure there psychological ones too. I wasn't making any excuses.

 

[Dave-W]

There are probably evolutionary reasons as well as social ones for men being harsh on other men & boys who aren't as "manly" as they think they should be.

I chalk a lot of it up to the survival instinct of primitive cave men and even more recently the US pioneers. Someone had to hunt for food or grow it, protect the family from predators, both human and animal. It was not uncommon that the struggle became violent at times, necessitating a certain amount of aggression. The young men had to learn that from their fathers in order to eventually provide for and protect their own families.

Sans that environmental situation, that same instinct can get turned sideways and become corrupt.

 

[BubbaJack]

Let's not forget that when they speak of "toxic masculinity" they are speaking about white men.

 

[Paidiske]

You don't think that there are negative racial stereotypes about the masculinity of, for example, black men?

 

[BubbaJack]

You don't think that there are negative racial stereotypes about the masculinity of, for example, black men?

Not that we of the melanin impoverished community can discuss. But check it out, in the West governments are importing millions of men from a culture(s) that view and treat women a tad more misogynistic than the native set. But to say such policies are problematic can expose one to the charge of "racism."

 

[Paidiske]

I just had a thought... are the sorts of ideas that says that a man should be the authority figure in any situation, and should be independent (etc) part of why men are less likely to seek medical help and the like? Because it means accepting that someone else is more expert on some aspect of your life than you are?

 

[BubbaJack]

I just had a thought... are the sorts of ideas that says that a man should be the authority figure in any situation, and should be independent (etc) part of why men are less likely to seek medical help and the like? Because it means accepting that someone else is more expert on some aspect of your life than you are?

Probably not. More likely males are told to be stoic and to protect women and children. Also, men are afraid of how they do look in the eyes of women; to appear weak is verboten.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I guess this is where I'm at. I don't care about the term "toxic masculinity." Use it, abandon it, nuance it, whatever.

What I'm interested in is, does our society construct gender in ways which harm individuals and the communities of which they are a part?

It seems to me a no-brainer that the answer is yes. So I want to look at the ways in which we do that, and how we can shift it.

Stop talking about it.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

I'd like to hear from guys who've actually done such classes, about how they found the content and the presentation. Because for those of us who've never done it, it's just speculation.

What I have noticed, from my own experience, is that when colleges try to talk about problems with a gendered aspect, many of the men simply switch off. They hear "we're being told we're terrible and blamed for everything," and don't get past that to actually trying to engage with what's going on (even when they're not being told they're terrible and blamed for everything). And I don't know how you get past that to actually having a constructive conversation.

I've been to four of them (the joys of having been staff at a varsity university, and not being sufficiently high up the food chain to fob off being the "staff" (NB not faculty) attendee), #3 was all right, as the person taking it was reasonable.

#1 was a farce as the person taking it was completely useless, and came off as more ignorant of the topics for discussion than the students being lectured.

#2 and #4 demonstrated a fundamental truth to me, if you don't want there to be an impression that "we're being told we're terrible and blamed for everything" that'll kill off any chance of actually conveying any useful information stone dead, then effectively telling your (compulsory) audience that they are terrible and blaming them for everything is not a good way to go.

They managed to combine offending those who wouldn't dream of doing anything improper, not getting through to those who would, and gave a good years worth of guilt, paranoia and self-hatred for the most sensitive.

(The main reason for having a staff member lurking at the back was to provide impartial feedback, in order to improve it for further years, sadly #3 was overbooked by the time the following year arrived, otherwise #4 wouldn't have gotten the gig).

 

[Gadarene]

They managed to combine offending those who wouldn't dream of doing anything improper, not getting through to those who would, and gave a good years worth of guilt, paranoia and self-hatred for the most sensitive.

And this is the problem with these things (can confirm through personal experience of that dynamic).

The guys who almost certainly won't act problematic will be made paranoid to the point of increased disengagement.

The guys who almost certainly will do these things are just going to laugh in the face of your little talk.

If you want to guarantee that more interactions between women and men become problematic, keep taking us down this road.

 

[ver 2-10]

What is toxic masculinity to you?

I think it's completely irrelevant, rainbow chasing at best!

It's no different than witch hunting, communism and now 2nd gen feminism, all rooted in people who are easily manipulated to believe in things that doesn't make sense. They see what they want to see.

Does 2nd gen feminists fight for equal rights? No! They only fight for lucrative jobs, they don't fight for equality in the less lucrative jobs, like military, garbage removal, and other blue streak jobs.

Can you actually discuss with 2nd gen feminists? No, the majority will always claim victimhood when opposed with sound reasoning.

 

[Sketcher]

What is toxic masculinity to you?

Douchebaggery. Wisdom and honor are important traits to have in masculinity. Douchebags are woefully deficient in both, even despising them.

How much of toxic masculine behaviors do you think can be changed? Nature/nurture.

Whether it is raising your sons right, or you yourself making better choices, much can be changed in nurture.

To what extent do women engage in "toxic masculine" behaviors?

The only examples I can think of are certain "independent businesswomen" - not all of them mind you, a subset - that are both highly demanding and highly unreasonable. It's as if they want to be the best "fighters" and picked the worst male role models in their profession. The difference I have experienced with their male counterparts is that they are more experienced and know when they can't bowl over somebody. They are more willing to work with you to get what they say they are after. The women though, they're still fighting you well after that point has been reached.

To what extent are women attracted to men who exhibit toxic masculine behaviors?

I don't have enough data to give a percentage.

What about the combination of toxic masculine and toxic feminine behaviors?

Toxic men and toxic women deserve each other.

On the opposite side. Do you think some "toxic" masculine traits are actually good? Get an unfair bad reputation?

A masculine trait doesn't become toxic, rather when certain character traits are deficient, the person becomes toxic. His masculine self combined with his toxicity makes "toxic masculine." Therefore, toxic men who have some good traits can be regarded for those traits, and sometimes the traits are used well. I don't call a truly toxic trait "good."

 

[Eudaimonist]

What is toxic masculinity to you?

Mainly, a narrative that is so poorly defined that it bashes men for having any masculinity at all. The "cure" to toxic masculinity is to be feminized or androgenized, and to white knight to contemptuous feminists. Or to identity oneself as an attack helicopter. [/sarcasm]

I'm not sure that the concept of toxic masculinity can truly be made sensible. What makes anyone think that a rapist (presumably someone who suffers from toxic masculinity) adheres to a culturally acceptable form of masculinity? Rapists are widely condemned.

And if we aren't talking about rapists, who are we talking about? Oh, I know... manspreaders!

I don't see any clear demarcation of toxic masculinity from healthy masculinity other than "men acting in ways that feminists do/don't like". It is a pure creation of ideology, a narrative that functions like an ink blot test. Anything can be seen in that ink blot, even "manspreading".

To answer your question directly, I don't have a concept of toxic masculinity. There are toxic people, but I don't associate that with any clearly defined concept or measure of masculinity (or femininity).


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BubbaJack]

I wish I was more toxic; I think I would have had a better life.

 

[durangodawood]

Stop talking about it.

Thats usually the exact wrong thing to do when youre figuring out how to change something.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thats usually the exact wrong thing to do when youre figuring out how to change something.

Is it?

I remember way back when I was a kid, Michael Jackson used a racial epithet about Jews in one of his songs/music videos that Jews were understandably upset about. I believe the claim was, "That word was almost gone from our language...and you've brought it back by putting it into your song."

I remember thinking how weird that was, as a kid, that a hateful anti-semitic word could almost disappear entirely.

You don't think we could choose to do the same with some ugly concepts? Imagine, for a moment, that an entire generation of U.S. citizens decided that they would no longer mention nor joke about the stereotype that Asians are bad drivers. How long would it take for that concept to disappear from our society altogether? A generation? Two generations?

I think if you're serious about changing people's perceptions of anything...that might be the only way to really do it. If we make race and racism the forefront of every discussion...if we make it a matter of contention at every level...then racism will always be a "huge" problem and always remain a matter of contention.

 

[durangodawood]

Is it?

I remember way back when I was a kid, Michael Jackson used a racial epithet about Jews in one of his songs/music videos that Jews were understandably upset about. I believe the claim was, "That word was almost gone from our language...and you've brought it back by putting it into your song."

I remember thinking how weird that was, as a kid, that a hateful anti-semitic word could almost disappear entirely.

You don't think we could choose to do the same with some ugly concepts? Imagine, for a moment, that an entire generation of U.S. citizens decided that they would no longer mention nor joke about the stereotype that Asians are bad drivers. How long would it take for that concept to disappear from our society altogether? A generation? Two generations?

I think if you're serious about changing people's perceptions of anything...that might be the only way to really do it. If we make race and racism the forefront of every discussion...if we make it a matter of contention at every level...then racism will always be a "huge" problem and always remain a matter of contention.

Yeah, sometimes the beast dies when you stop feeding it.

But I dont see how ending discussion answers the open ended question she asked.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah, sometimes the beast dies when you stop feeding it.

But I dont see how ending discussion answers the open ended question she asked.

Read the last part of her post which I originally replied to...

She was interested in ways we can "change" things as they stand now. That's why I offered up a solution. Honestly, I think the "solution" part of this whole discussion gets neglected entirely.