Toxic masculinity.

[MehGuy]

Like I said, many women egg on toxic masculinity too.

Lol.

 

[Gadarene]

Ick. Who wants to be coddled? I'd rather not be patronised.

From my point of view however, I see not coddling women as also entailing not having any truck with things like Schrodinger's Rapist.

 

[Paidiske]

Yeah... let's not revisit that here. We've done it to death and I don't think we're going to agree.

By coddling I thought MehGuy meant ideas like that men should be the provider and women should be financially dependent.

 

[Gadarene]

Why Colleges Should Stop Teaching “Toxic Masculinity”

Interesting piece which mentions something I heard elsewhere while looking up pieces on toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity in the sense of how masculinity harms men was a concept originally composed by the men's movement in the 90s.

It only gained its additional meaning of blaming masculinity for how men harm society after feminists got their hands on it.

 

[Gadarene]

Yeah... let's not revisit that here. We've done it to death and I don't think we're going to agree.

By coddling I thought MehGuy meant ideas like that men should be the provider and women should be financially dependent.

Nor do I, but I did want to point out that there is more than one way to coddle.

 

[MehGuy]

Yeah... let's not revisit that here. We've done it to death and I don't think we're going to agree.

By coddling I thought MehGuy meant ideas like that men should be the provider and women should be financially dependent.

No, I mean't much more than that.

As far as it being done to death, I think further discussion is fine. When it comes to gender relations and sexism (for both sides) coddling is an extremely important and often complex topic.

 

[Gadarene]

Good comment from the Toni Airaksinen piece:

"Let’s flip the script and see how it sounds, shall we?

Let’s pretend universities were making women take classes on toxic femininity. In this class women are told that gold digging and false rape accusations are unacceptable. Mind you, at some universities, this is a required course.

Are you starting to get an idea about how offensive and bigoted these requirements are?"

 

[Cimorene]

Are colleges commonly requiring students to take classes about toxic masculinity? Bc from the other thread about it I thought it was just offered up & students were free not to take it.

 

[Paidiske]

I'd like to hear from guys who've actually done such classes, about how they found the content and the presentation. Because for those of us who've never done it, it's just speculation.

What I have noticed, from my own experience, is that when colleges try to talk about problems with a gendered aspect, many of the men simply switch off. They hear "we're being told we're terrible and blamed for everything," and don't get past that to actually trying to engage with what's going on (even when they're not being told they're terrible and blamed for everything). And I don't know how you get past that to actually having a constructive conversation.

 

[Gadarene]

What I have noticed, from my own experience, is that when colleges try to talk about problems with a gendered aspect, many of the men simply switch off. They hear "we're being told we're terrible and blamed for everything," and don't get past that to actually trying to engage with what's going on (even when they're not being told they're terrible and blamed for everything). And I don't know how you get past that to actually having a constructive conversation.

What actually happens is what is happening in this thread right now.

Men who don't like toxic masculinity concept:
You know, a lot of people use that term as an excuse to stereotype or generalise men

People defending TM:
But the real definition of toxic masculinity is how men harm themselves.

MWDLTMC: See, look at the words you just used - "how men harm themselves". And yes, while some people use the term that way, many of us have experienced the term being used to only discuss, for the umpteenth time, how male traits harm society, in a way that it is not considered acceptable to talk about other groups.

PDTM: I think the real problem here is you just assume you're being blamed for everything. How we can possibly have a constructive conversation with you?

MWDLTMC: *headdesk*

_____________________________________

The problem is people using TM to crap on men.

They exist. They are the ones that need to be sorted out, not the people who are passing on their experiences of how TM is often used to man-bash.

Guys tend to think they're being collectively blamed because they're not idiots. They can see what other groups consider to be unfair, stereotyped collective blame. And yet they as men are expected to sit there and take it.

 

[Paidiske]

I guess this is where I'm at. I don't care about the term "toxic masculinity." Use it, abandon it, nuance it, whatever.

What I'm interested in is, does our society construct gender in ways which harm individuals and the communities of which they are a part?

It seems to me a no-brainer that the answer is yes. So I want to look at the ways in which we do that, and how we can shift it.

 

[Gadarene]

I guess this is where I'm at. I don't care about the term "toxic masculinity." Use it, abandon it, nuance it, whatever.

What I'm interested in is, does our society construct gender in ways which harm individuals and the communities of which they are a part?

It seems to me a no-brainer that the answer is yes. So I want to look at the ways in which we do that, and how we can shift it.

Obviously they do.

This whole dispute is because of how the impact of gender roles on men and women are discussed so differently.

Whatever tack is chosen, simply make it a consistent one.

If you are going to look at how men's gender socialisation harms society rather than simply just men themselves, then let's make a similar effort for women, because right now we aren't.

 

[Cimorene]

Like I said, many women egg on toxic masculinity too.

Lol.

Well yeah. And vice versa. I've just seen more men mock men for not being 'manly' than I have seen women do that to men. I've heard more about men being violent to men who are gay or somehow comes across as not masculine. To state the total obvious that doesn't mean women haven't done that horrible stuff too. In that thread about male models for Maybelline it was men mocking the men for wearing makeup.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, there's a thread running on a similar discussion for women, so in this instance I think we're being perfectly consistent.

Does that mean we can actually have the conversation?

 

[Gadarene]

Well, there's a thread running on a similar discussion for women, so in this instance I think we're being perfectly consistent.

Does that mean we can actually have the conversation?

I'm hardly stopping you.

 

[Landon Caeli]

A dual thread for the toxic femininity thread.

What is toxic masculinity to you?
How much of toxic masculine behaviors do you think can be changed? Nature/nurture.
To what extent do women engage in "toxic masculine" behaviors?
To what extent are women attracted to men who exhibit toxic masculine behaviors?
What about the combination of toxic masculine and toxic feminine behaviors?
Or do you think it's all crap? Lol. Why?

Feel free to go as far as you want. When it comes to talks about psychology and the like, honest discussion probably entails very uncomfortable discussion.

On the opposite side. Do you think some "toxic" masculine traits are actually good? Get an unfair bad reputation?

Toxic masculinity... Yes, that must be when I'm driving nicely in town, but then all of a sudden, for no reason at all, I get the urge burn rubber as soon as the light turns green... Then she gets mad.

...But what's so bad about that? Maybe she feels awkward being in the car that's doing masculine things? Who knows for sure, but in any case, she ought to be enjoying it as much as me.

 

[Paidiske]

Okay. So from what I can gather, one of the major things identified as an issue is that most schools structure their classrooms and expectations in ways which don't suit the learning style or personality of many boys. The boys then fall behind, fail, or are labelled as having learning difficulties, which has long-term consequences for them.

I must admit I don't fully understand that - maybe because I went to an all-girls high school - but I'd like to learn more about what men would consider an ideal learning environment and how it might be different to what we have now.

 

[MehGuy]

Well yeah. And vice versa. I've just seen more men mock men for not being 'manly' than I have seen women do that to men. I've heard more about men being violent to men who are gay or somehow comes across as not masculine. To state the total obvious that doesn't mean women haven't done that horrible stuff too. In that thread about male models for Maybelline it was men mocking the men for wearing makeup.

Under the moral banner of equality?

As for why men are more harsh to men who act feminine, I think there are evolutionary reasons. Mainly the idea of feminine men trying to hog precious recourses. Men are supposed to be the protectors not the protected, men are more disposable than women, a man with feminine characteristics is probably seen as a biological threat to many men because such men are seen as taking away special protection from women.\

Not to mention possibly not fulfilling his duty to be a protector himself.

 

[Gadarene]

Okay. So from what I can gather, one of the major things identified as an issue is that most schools structure their classrooms and expectations in ways which don't suit the learning style or personality of many boys. The boys then fall behind, fail, or are labelled as having learning difficulties, which has long-term consequences for them.

I must admit I don't fully understand that - maybe because I went to an all-girls high school - but I'd like to learn more about what men would consider an ideal learning environment and how it might be different to what we have now.

I am probably not the sort of guy to ask as I was a definite book learner and hated team sports that involved brute strength.

What would have made my life easier in that environment is proper discipline of the students who mock and bully the quieter ones for actually enjoying the work they're doing.

But beyond that, the school system worked for me, so I can't contribute much more here.

 

[Gadarene]

Well, not everyone is a book learner. Perhaps there needs to be a more practical element to schooling at an earlier stage. Once I hit secondary school we had home ec classes, woodworking, art, business and economics.....maybe a little more of that early on, aren't students usually pigeonholed with "learning difficulties" during primary school?