Toxic masculinity.

[Paidiske]

It's been a while since I read Dawkins, but I disagreed with a lot of what I read (his genetics as well as his atheism, I note). The thing about human beings is that we develop over time. We change, we grow, we respond to stimuli and our environment. This is especially true of the brain. (So it's not that we can extend past our hardware but that our hardware can develop, if you like).

We know that behaviour can be formed and re-formed. (Any parent knows all about that!) I don't see why stereotypically gendered behaviours should be any different.

 

[MehGuy]

It's been a while since I read Dawkins, but I disagreed with a lot of what I read (his genetics as well as his atheism, I note). The thing about human beings is that we develop over time. We change, we grow, we respond to stimuli and our environment. This is especially true of the brain. (So it's not that we can extend past our hardware but that our hardware can develop, if you like).

I don't see how any coherent biology can develop if things were that loose. Especially when it comes to attraction. Humans are malleable but we still have to work within frameworks.

If you just look physically (which often reflects things psychologically) there are definite gender difference averages.

We know that behaviour can be formed and re-formed. (Any parent knows all about that!) I don't see why stereotypically gendered behaviours should be any different.

If gender is that wishy washy, I don't see why the whole concept doesn't just fall apart.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't see how any coherent biology can develop if things were that loose. Especially when it comes to attraction. Humans are malleable but we still have to work within frameworks.

Have you done any reading on the effects of pornography on the brain? It's interesting work and reflects some of the kind of plasticity I'm referring to.

If gender is that wishy washy, I don't see why the whole concept doesn't just fall apart.

Well, it's certainly been called into question. Perhaps it's not as robust as we've often assumed?

 

[MehGuy]

Have you done any reading on the effects of pornography on the brain? It's interesting work and reflects some of the kind of plasticity I'm referring to.

I haven't read anything too deeply into it?

What about it?

Well, it's certainly been called into question. Perhaps it's not as robust as we've often assumed?

I know. Before I became a critic of feminism, I use to think gender didn't exist. That it was just an illusion.

As far as gender not being robust. Being a short man who's often rejected for his short height, gender sure doesn't sound weak to me. Lol. Especially when you ask women why they prefer tall men, despite the reasons making little sense in this day and age.

Although the same is increasingly true for why men prefer youthful looking women.

 

[Paidiske]

Essentially, what you watch shapes what you find attractive and how and under what circumstances arousal is possible; it shapes attraction. Worth reading up on if you're interested.

I don't understand a woman rejecting a man for his height. The only trait all the men I've been seriously attracted to have had in common was intelligence. Even a very good-looking man loses all appeal to me when I discover he's stupid...

 

[MehGuy]

Essentially, what you watch shapes what you find attractive and how and under what circumstances arousal is possible; it shapes attraction. Worth reading up on if you're interested.

I never found that true for me. What I was into has changed little since I was a kid. Porn might have given me new ideas, but that same basic narrative was still there.

I don't understand a woman rejecting a man for his height. The only trait all the men I've been seriously attracted to have had in common was intelligence. Even a very good-looking man loses all appeal to me when I discover he's stupid...

The most common answer I hear from women is that they like to feel protected, and they cannot feel that unless a man is tall. Despite living in an age where guns can be a great equalizer and generally living in a peaceful society. Unfortunately for short men, evolution has not caught up to this. So women (and men) still operate with pre-historic impulses when it comes to mate selection.

Isn't true for some women, but certainly many of them.

 

[BubbaJack]

Far more overwhelming is the reality that looks beat everything else when it comes to attractions. There are exceptions, but exceptions make the rule.

 

[MehGuy]

Far more overwhelming is the reality that looks beat everything else when it comes to attractions. There are exceptions, but exceptions make the rule.

Yeah, but often those shallow looks also compliment psychological mindsets as well.

There are reasons women have more child-like looking faces than men.

Why the idea of "women and children first" is a mindset..

Men and women look different for a reason.

 

[Paidiske]

Is it that women's faces look more childlike, or that we associate male features (such as beards) with adulthood? (Thus infantilising adult feminine features).

 

[MehGuy]

Is it that women's faces look more childlike, or that we associate male features (such as beards) with adulthood? (Thus infantilising adult feminine features).

I'm not talking about beards. Women just have more neoteny looking faces (and men are more attracted to women with neoteny faces).

Helps facilitated the role of man protector and women protected. The origin of many sexist behaviors, lol.

Which is often why when I talk about achieving equality I focus so much on not coddling women.

 

[Paidiske]

Ick. Who wants to be coddled? I'd rather not be patronised.

 

[MehGuy]

Ick. Who wants to be coddled? I'd rather not be patronised.

You might not want to be. I've met many women who do like it. And many men who like to do it.

And yeah, a part of me is driven to coddle other women. Although as an egalitarian I try to avoid that kind of behavior. It really is toxic. And yeah, I'd count it as a part of toxic masculinity and femininity, lol.

 

[bhsmte]

If there were not certain traits each gender had that we are hardwired to be attracted to, the human race would have been extinct a long time ago.

 

[MehGuy]

If there were not certain traits each gender had that we are hardwired to be attracted to, the human race would have been extinct a long time ago.

It's amazing how many people here seem to just shrug off gender differences as just socialization.

Then again like I said in another thread, many people seem to be attracted to the theory of patriarchy, which I can gather is mostly blaming socialization. And that the idea that gender traits will probably never be able to be fully gotten rid of might force people to change some of their narratives.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

A dual thread for the toxic femininity thread.

What is toxic masculinity to you?
How much of toxic masculine behaviors do you think can be changed? Nature/nurture.
To what extent do women engage in "toxic masculine" behaviors?
To what extent are women attracted to men who exhibit toxic masculine behaviors?
What about the combination of toxic masculine and toxic feminine behaviors?
Or do you think it's all crap? Lol. Why?

Feel free to go as far as you want. When it comes to talks about psychology and the like, honest discussion probably entails very uncomfortable discussion.

On the opposite side. Do you think some "toxic" masculine traits are actually good? Get an unfair bad reputation?

Masculinity is all but extinct, and woman are far worse off because of it.

 

[MehGuy]

Masculinity is all but extinct, and woman are far worse off because of it.

I wouldn't say that. Although with the advancements of technology men probably are more domesticated and coddled than in the past.

Wouldn't say women are worse off for it. Although some of the feminists who try to shame masculinity and make men more feminine seem to be doing themselves a disservice when it comes to having men around that actually attract them.

A lot of men know that being a "bad boy" is more appealing than being a "nice guy".

 

[bhsmte]

Masculinity is all but extinct, and woman are far worse off because of it.

In what way?

 

[Gadarene]

Despite living in an age where guns can be a great equalizer and generally living in a peaceful society.

The most peaceful society for women ever, in fact.

 

[Cimorene]

I think it's toxic that men can get mocked bc they show emotion or cry. Crying is just human, it's not masculine or feminine. I've seen men mock other men for doing things they don't think are masculine, like cry. That is really stupid to me. I see this more online than IRL though so maybe it's just that on the internet people are way bigger jerks.

 

[Gadarene]

I think it's toxic that men can get mocked bc they show emotion or cry. Crying is just human, it's not masculine or feminine. I've seen other men mock men for doing things they don't think are masculine, like cry. That is really stupid to me.

This is Jessica Valenti - woman, feminist, journalist, and Clinton shill: