Toward a Personal Theology

[seebs]

None of what you say seems to apply at all in cases where scripture appears to be contradictory or ambiguous.

 

[sola fide]

Hey seebs, I wasn't sure if you were addressing me or someone else there, could you clarify? Thanks.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by seebs
None of what you say seems to apply at all in cases where scripture appears to be contradictory or ambiguous.

Scripture is neither. If you look at the context in which things that seem to contradict are written, you will find that they may apply to specific situations or circumstance. For scripture to contradict itself, it would not be infallible.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by seebs
And didn't, for reasons I cannot comprehend, say "by the way, this is a *really bad idea*". So, for hundreds of years, people simply took the Bible at face value, and kept slaves.

When something spoke to them, and said "the slavery thing is a bad idea", it contradicted the plain sense of the Old Testament, was totally unsupported by the New Testament... and was, nonetheless, the will of God.

Why? I dunno. But you won't convince me that slavery, as it was practiced by many people from the days of Israel to modern times, is morally acceptable... and I don't think you'll find anything in the Bible which condemns it.

I don't see where in my post I said that slavery was morally acceptable. 

I don't remember the name of the writer of Amazing Grace but I know that at one time he was a slave trader.  At some point he was convicted of his sin toward his fellow man and repented and changed.  Hense the words, "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see". 

A good scripture ref regarding slavery can be found in Philimon 14 - 16.   It was written by Paul from Rome and is addressed to Philimon regarding his escaped slave Onesimus.  Onesimus had become a believer and associated himself with Paul.  As a slave he was the legal property of Philemon.  In addition, Onesimus had stolen some of Philemon's goods.

With the letter Paul sends Onesimus back to Philemon, emphasizing that Christian conduct should permeate their relationship.  Paul especially pleads for forgiveness for Onesimus, asking that he be accepted as a Christian brother.

Here's the Amplified version of those three verses.  "But it has been my wish to do nothing about it without first consulting you and getting your consent, in order that your benevolence might not seem to be the result of compulsion or of pressure but might be voluntary [on your part].  Perhaps it was for this reason that he was separated [from you ] for a while, that you might have him back as yours forever, Not as a slave any longer but as [something] more than a slave, as a brother [Christian], especially dear to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh [as a servant] and in the Lord [as a fellow believer].

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by seebs
I thought God's Word was written upon our hearts.

The problem is, as soon as you find two apparently-contradictory verses, you *must* either pick and choose, or emphasize, and you must do so based on something else - perhaps just the rest of the Bible, perhaps guidance from teachers, perhaps the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

How many people here believe that slaves should obey their masters, and that we should take slaves from neighboring kingdoms? If you believe that, I can't help you... If you *don't*, then how is that not "picking and choosing"?

This is why we have the discipline of Hermenautics.  It helps us explain how the seemingly contradictory scriptures.  It helps show how they are really not.  We study as guided by the HS.  The guidance of the HS is very important but we must not neglect the study of it. 

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Scripture is neither. If you look at the context in which things that seem to contradict are written, you will find that they may apply to specific situations or circumstance. For scripture to contradict itself, it would not be infallible.

I have not yet been convinced that Scripture is infallible at that level. I believe that the message is true, but I have not been convinced yet that this means there's not so much as a wrong word anywhere in it.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
This is why we have the discipline of Hermenautics.  It helps us explain how the seemingly contradictory scriptures.  It helps show how they are really not.  We study as guided by the HS.  The guidance of the HS is very important but we must not neglect the study of it. 

Indeed - but at the same time, I worry when I reconcile seemingly contradictory scriptures that I may be picking the truth I like, and reconciling the other away... This is why I always try to remember that my interpretation is *not* flawless, even if I grant that the original material is correct.

I think the greatest failings of Christians have come about when we have forgotten that what we believe is our interpretation of Scripture, not Scripture itself, and that we, like those before us, will be wrong sometimes.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by reAsonX

I tend to agree with quafer on the subject.  I think in the OT, the heart was decietful and untrustworthy. The NT has some things to say on this, most noteworthy:

1 John 2:20-23 LITV
(20) And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
(21) I did not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because every lie is not of the truth.

1 John 2:27 LITV
(27) And the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and as He taught you, abide in Him.

This is what I am talking about. It is the living truth that is revealed into our hearts by the Spirit of God.

Some imteresting texts from the Nt abotu the heart of man.


Rom 3:9-18
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

Rom 7:15-25
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I {would} like to {do}  but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want {to do}  I agree with the Law, {confessing} that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(NAU)

Also the writers of the NT are constantly telling the Christians at the place they are writing to be steadfast in heart.  Or to not sin in their heart.  Surely the Nt writers understood that we still sin in our hearts even after salvation so we can't trust our hearts but only God. 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by seebs
Indeed - but at the same time, I worry when I reconcile seemingly contradictory scriptures that I may be picking the truth I like, and reconciling the other away... This is why I always try to remember that my interpretation is *not* flawless, even if I grant that the original material is correct.

I think the greatest failings of Christians have come about when we have forgotten that what we believe is our interpretation of Scripture, not Scripture itself, and that we, like those before us, will be wrong sometimes.

cool.  I have no problem with this.  I am constantly reevaluating my interpertations of scripture because I find that I have been wrong about my interpertation in the past.  We are flawed in our interpretation.  However we must remember that much in scripture is clear.  That this does not make it good to accept any intepretation of scripture.  (not saying you said that) but I am in full agreement in what you said above because that is mch of what the reformers fought over.  For the ability to interpret scripture for ourselves and to reinterpret scripture when we find (think) that others are wrong. Of course hermeneutical rules apply and we must recognize and learn from the past.  I guess what I was hearing was this newer idea of just listening to your heart nad not using the tools God gave us to help intepret scripture. 

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by sola fide
Hey seebs, I wasn't sure if you were addressing me or someone else there, could you clarify? Thanks.

Sorry, I was responding to you, at least once. I think there are things in Scripture which, taken straight up at face value, come across as contradictory or ambiguous. I say this with confidence because hundreds of great theologians have lived and died without resolving these questions so firmly that we don't still have debates.

From this I conclude that faith is not about having the answers, but wanting them.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by seebs

From this I conclude that faith is not about having the answers, but wanting them.

Yeah maybe an even better definition is that faith is not about having the answers but believing in spite of not having the asnwers.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Yeah maybe an even better definition is that faith is not about having the answers but believing in spite of not having the asnwers.

Right. So, sometimes, I'm just not sure exactly what I'm believing... For instance, I don't know what God wants of me, but I can do my best, and keep my eye out for signs.

 

[sola fide]

I do not believe that scripture ever contradicts itself. There are paradoxes in scripture, but not contradictions. I think the important thing here is that we do not scream where scripture whispers, and do not whisper where scripture screams.
The key to all of scripture is Christ, and Him crucified. Submission to His will and work is the only answer that I know of. It's not really that complicated when you think about it.
While in the process, we may make wrong distinctions, and even mistakes about the scriptures....but, in all this, God remains sovereign...and is bringing forth His will. I believe the Word of God to be perfect, infallible, and completely sufficient. Just let the scriptures speak for themselves, and as I said, don't scream where the scriptures whisper.

Grace to you.

 

[seebs]

That is excellent advice. I have found that discussing specific points is useful only up to a point; past that, it's just bickering and teaches me nothing. But... As you say, we may make mistakes, but God is sovereign, and, as long as we're making a serious effort to be correct, any mistakes are presumably acceptable; if He wanted them corrected, He would correct them.

 

[sola fide]

Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. We are responsible for fervantly studying God's word, and to rightly divide it; or as I like to say, rightly unify it. I don't want to go out and start teaching heresy. That's why it's hard sometime to deal with issues like modesty in apparel, church government, etc., but I'd rather take a chance on interpreting issues like that than take the chances many people do on interpreting the end times.
Like I said, I think it's important to only scream where scripture screams. And what it screams out to me is Christ crucifed as a ransome to God the Father for His people. Paul said he pretended to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. I think that's a giant leap in the right direction.

Grace to you.

 

[seebs]

Yeah, I see your point. I personally refuse to form strong opinions on eschatology; I simply don't have enough information, and I *don't need to know*. Salvation is enough certainty for me about the future; given that, what else do I need to know?

 

[sola fide]

Well there's alot we "need to know". I mean we have to know how to live after initial conversion. But I think you get my point.

Grace.

 

[wryan]

I believe that the word acts as a foundation for our spirits, almost like a map for walking in the dark. The point has been raised about the fallibility of the heart and I agree whole heartily(pardun the pun), I would say that's the point of the word being there. When the Lord gave Moses the ten commandments he said that the law was given to them to show them that they sinned. What I'm saying is that whenever somebody recieves spiritual revelation they should test it by the word. This is not picking and choosing what you like but taking an honest sober look at whether or not it lines up.

Seebs was talking about how easy it is to do just that. Emphacize the things that seem to agree more with you and leave the ones that don't. I would say that this is definately a trap and one we should all watch out for. My hope is that if I keep my heart open to the Lord for correction and guidance He'll almost put a sort of tether on me so even when I go off in a wrong direction, I'll only go so far. This being said, the hardest part of it all is to die to something your holding onto. We get so comfortable in our own doctrines and beliefs that our own growth suffers. So for anyone who was going to quote what road good intentions leads to, it takes more than that.  

My belief is that the word apart from the spirit, or the spirit apart from the word are both incomplete. Without either one true growth will not occur like it was intended. If you have a map and never go for a walk it will do you little good, and on the other hand if your wadering around in the dark you never know what you might stumble upon. Bill