Totus Tuus sum Maria

SteveR2021 · Apr 13, 2005

Yet Paul says they're "asleep" and "dead in Christ". They have yet to be resurrected...

Again...'soul sleep'. A lot of us don't believe in soul sleep.

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Stefan Davidovich said:
I presume you believe in 'soul sleep'?

Of course not, and I stated as much in my post. I believe as Paul did:

1 Thes. 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Did Paul believe in soul-sleep? Of course not, but he is making a point by calling the dead in Christ "asleep". In so doing Paul makes evident the fact that we no longer related to the dead as we do the living. Paul does not comfort the believers with dead loved-ones that the dead can be contacted or intercede on their behalf, rather, that they will be resurrected some day.

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Stefan Davidovich said:
Again...'soul sleep'. A lot of us don't believe in soul sleep.

You answer the question then, what did Paul mean when he called the 'dead in Christ' "asleep"?

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Facing East said:
ha, that is the only implication for his comment

Not at all. Do you deny that Paul calls them "asleep"?

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

SumTinWong · Apr 13, 2005

Lockheed said:
Like?

OSAS.

No, on the basis of what Christ and His apostles state in the God-breathed word. It is not my opinion that I seek to promote, but the Word of God.

The Word of God? You mean Jesus? There is only one time when Word is capitalized in the Bible and it refers to Jesus, and not to itself.

SteveR2021 · Apr 13, 2005

You answer the question then, what did Paul mean when he called the 'dead in Christ' "asleep"?

Jesus also used the same expression to refer to the dead girl. His point had nothing to do with communication or intercession - he was making the point that these people are still living.

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Uncle Bud said:
OSAS.

'Once saved always saved' (which I don't particularly like either) is by no means a universal belief of baptists. I'm partial to Perserverance of the Saints.

So let's review... you deny salvation by faith alone and OSAS or Perserverance of the saints. What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?

The Word of God? You mean Jesus? There is only one time when Word is capitalized in the Bible and it refers to Jesus, and not to itself.

No, the Apostles speak of Scripture as the "God-breathed" word. Whether one capitalizes it or not is of no matter.

SteveR2021 · Apr 13, 2005

What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?

I am a Baptist because I believe in adult Baptism and I believe in the congregational system...I'm not speaking for Bud here of course but I don't believe in OSAS or faith alone either - that's one of the beauties of being Baptist (at least in Canada)...

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

I noticed you dodged your own question. What is it PAUL is saying when he's talking about the "dead" (lest we forget that they're indeed physically dead) being "asleep". Why doesn't Paul commend the believers to pray to their loved ones and seek their intercession? Why isn't such a belief expressed anywhere in Scripture?

Again, the fact that the believing dead are spiritually around the throne of God worshiping Him is not in dispute, what is in dispute is their ability to omniciently hear prayers and intercede on behalf of the living.

Stefan Davidovich said:
Jesus also used the same expression to refer to the dead girl. His point had nothing to do with communication or intercession - he was making the point that these people are still living.

Could anyone in the room communicate with her? Was she available for intercession?

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Stefan Davidovich said:
I am a Baptist because I believe in adult Baptism and I believe in the congregational system...I'm not speaking for Bud here of course but I don't believe in OSAS or faith alone either - that's one of the beauties of being Baptist (at least in Canada)...

What Baptist denomination teaches against faith alone and OSAS?

SteveR2021 · Apr 13, 2005

What Baptist denomination teaches against faith alone and OSAS?

Well I preach in the Baptist church and I teach against faith alone and OSAS...I'm speaking for the Baptist church in Canada though.

Could anyone in the room communicate with her? Was she available for intercession?

I wasn't making a case for intercession or communication with saints...I was merely pointing out that Paul was talking about something entirely different.

Lockheed · Apr 13, 2005

Stefan Davidovich said:
Well I preach in the Baptist church and I teach against faith alone and OSAS...I'm speaking for the Baptist church in Canada though.

I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

aReformedPatriot · Apr 13, 2005

ya'll are gonna get off focus if you turn this into a OSAS type debate which will be most dissapointing as I have found this thread fascinating.

ZiSunka · Apr 13, 2005

Lockheed said:
I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

I don't really either. I am no denomination and every denomination and I most closely align with the confession of faith of the Mennonite Church.

SteveR2021 · Apr 13, 2005

I see, no denominational affilitation? You hold to no denominational creed?

No. I'm a Christian first and foremost. Denominational creeds have done enough harm. I grew up as an MK - we were Christians. I've been part of Baptist, Pentecostal, independent and Alliance churches since coming back. Although I'm being prepared to be ordained with the Baptist church, I take opportunities to speak in Alliance and Pentecostal churches - I take part in discussions on this forum because I am a member of a Baptist church...but I don't label myself as a Baptist. I'm a Christian.

You hold to no denominational creed?

No. No denomination has it perfectly right. The Pentecostal church emphasizes certain truths that we tend to overlook, the Baptist church emphasizes other truths that other churches overlook etc.

ya'll are gonna get off focus if you turn this into a OSAS type debate which will be most dissapointing as I have found this thread fascinating.

Yes, let's get back on track. I would be happy to discuss denominational creeds etc. in another thread.

BBAS 64 · Apr 13, 2005

Uncle Bud said:
So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

No the truth will always remain. Whether or not people will see the truth, that is different.

Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

Good day, Uncle bud

There is a big diffence IMO as to errors in the Baptist Local churches, in so far as I have seen people over time in reading the scripture coming to a fuuler understanding of what scripture teaches and allway see scripture as the final binding authority of their faith.

In regaurds to the RCC, they in their own writtings say they can not be "reformed", even in the light of Scripture, cause with out them they posit the Scripture is unispired.

Should not assume, kind of looks bad. Yes they said what they thought with out reservation wheather we agree or not, Was never the issue.

Contend for the Faith once delivered....

Peace to u,

Bill

GreenEyedLady · Apr 14, 2005

Lockheed said:
In his encyclical "Redemptoris Mater" John Paul II wrote:
"And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows . . . he was despised, and we esteemed him not: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3-5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of Gods unsearchable judgments! How completely she abandons herself to God without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will to him whose ways are inscrutable(cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power! Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self-emptying. For Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men: precisely on Golgotha humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest kenosisof faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the sign of contradiction foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: and a sword will pierce through your own soul also. Yes, truly blessed is she who believed!"

I'll allow the man to speak for himself. Thus, as his motto states: "Totus Tuus sum Maria"... " Mary, I am totally yours".

I am confused with this theology.
I agree that protestants have skipped around Mary's role and they could embrace her position just a little. Making her above anyone else in scripture is what I do not get.
GEL

SteveR2021 · Apr 14, 2005

I noticed you dodged your own question. What is it PAUL is saying when he's talking about the "dead" (lest we forget that they're indeed physically dead) being "asleep".

Yes, they are physically dead as was the child Jesus was referring to. The soul is alive in paradise while the body is sleeping until the final resurrection when we are all given new bodies. I hope that answers your question.

SumTinWong · Apr 14, 2005

Lockheed said:
So let's review... you deny salvation by faith alone and OSAS or Perserverance of the saints. What exactly do you believe that makes you a Baptist?

Wrong. I never said I did not believe in perserverance of the saints (probably not in the way you think of it though).

I deny all five points of Calvinism as well, don't forget that.

I am not a Baptist, I am a Christian that attends and is a member of a Baptist church.

No, the Apostles speak of Scripture as the "God-breathed" word. Whether one capitalizes it or not is of no matter.

To you it isn't but I guess that is all that is supposed to matter, right? I never said the Bible was not God-breathed, I said it was not the Word, which is Jesus.

GreenEyedLady · Apr 14, 2005

Can you all debate without being so harsh????

Man, i could have sworn I saw compassion the other day, or was I dreaming?

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