Totus Tuus sum Maria

SonOfThunder said:

Iollian's posts took me 1 hour 20 minutes to digest, it fet like the whole Bible


James

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Well, the posts pretty much WERE the whole Bible.....which is exactly the point. Great job, even if a bit overwhelming. I'm glad we're not hinging this on one or two verses.

Ok I have only been through half of these responses, and I believe I am out of rep points. This is defiantly a Baptist thread ahhhhh feels like home!

Lockheed - I understand where you are going with this, and the only thing I want to say is that no matter the denomination, Satan has a way of twisting the truth. Loves it when we are in disagreement. God says he has plans for us for the good not disaster, Satan is saying the exact opposite. Keep this in mind on both sides of the fence here. Yes even in our own. I attend a Baptist Church. I feel this is where God has called me and agree with MANY things..in the real world. Some of the stuff I see here I have to raise my eyebrows. Baptist on paper gets confusing. I do believe you are right to point out the possibilities of The pope being misunderstood because lets face it - it is quite obvious that this can happen. IN ANY denomination. (I had actually never seen that quote before, I found it enlightening)


Regarding the statue picture. When I first arrived here I hopped over to the Catholic forum and started asking questions. Which somewhat satisfied me however I felt many were on the defensive so I ceased conversation. One comment that many agreed with regarding these statues of Mary...it is their way of showing that Mary welcomes you to come in to see her son. I thought this was a gesture made in good faith. Why not a Jesus statue? I am not sure. Why is Jesus on the cross, when as Christians we know he rose? I have been told once to remind us of what suffering he did for us before He rose, as that we don’t forget. Who cares?? Some need these reminders some don't but you are right it is very wise to make sure that others understand - this can be taken the wrong way. Trust me if I ever run into a Catholic that puts Mary above Jesus, we would be having an extensive talk too! But out here I do not believe this to be the case.

And pardon me as that I do not remember whom made the post.....somewhere in here a catholic said that they pray to the saints for support. This did alarm me, as that I just wanted to make sure that person understands that as Christians, we have a direct line to God. No need of any other assistance. However, we are taught as Baptist to fellowship in prayer, or prayer warriors. For me - I believe it is an awesome practice for two reasons. For my support and accountability amongst fellow Christians. And their understanding of my struggles as example. Not that I believe God is going to hear the prayers any more than what I have said to Him. But that it promotes fellowship (unless I am missing some verses on this one)

So what my point is - we all have various ways of showing our faith and that is Ok. But it is very important that you understand, there is no need for any assistance in talking with God, for assistance, repentance etc.... eventually we start dispelling some of those things as our faith becomes stronger and our sanctification more mature IMVHO

Oh and yesterday I believe or a couple of days ago I caught the news and I distinctly remember the Pope embracing all Christians..including the jews. I found this to be very pleasing to God. Wise man, just because we disagee does not mean we should disrespect (of course this is contrary to scripture) Just because he is addressing non- Christians, does not mean the couldn’t become one. At least this is how I took it. A watchful eye should be everywhere with us Christians, and that includes any denomination in my eyes.

Now I will try to get through the rest of this thread which will most likely multiply....who knows if I will ever see the end!

Lockheed- I just wanted to let you know that I have read your post and I am not ignoring you. Just caught up in some things around home tonight and I would like to take some time with this - You covered alot of areas!

Talk soon!

My apologies this has taken so long to reply to.

Lockheed said:

I'm sure that Satan loves it even more when we willingly embrace falsehood in the guise of 'unity'. This is exactly what the Apostle Paul warned about in his pastoral letters when he writes, "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..."

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First of all I want you to know I DO believe that we should be knowledgeable and aware of things that can be misleading. I commend you for having such a passion for wanting to share this. Truly I do. It is a hard job and not for everyone. Even though I talk about mannerism in which something is portrayed to others, that does not mean I do not believe it is important. I have no idea how God is using you in this manner. And I do believe He does. It is just plain biblical common sense that we should help our brothers and sisters. But something to consider, is this completely the Holy Spirit talking through you or could it be a bit of your “thinking” mixed in? Something I feel personally, that I take from your posts is that you are missing in all of this is what is unity in the Bible? What does that mean? What does it mean when we say we are one body? What classifies us as Christians, what are the criteria in your mind? Do we all mature in our faith at the same rate? Or does each of us have some sanctification to get though? I am not sure about anyone else but I sure seem to be working on it every, single day. As I mature I put away things I no longer need. I read a post around here someone wrote…it was an excellent assessment in very simple terms. I will have to find it. But being a Christian simply believes in faith of Christ’s blood as total justification from God and in front of God. Catholics do believe this, no matter the doctrinal differences, I am taught to LOVE my Christian brothers and sisters. Not just when they are nice to me, but when they might need correction. I love them because they loved me, when I went through many stages of “part-thought-out and prayed about ideas” But most of all isn’t this what God does with us? However, in the real world, I do not see this happening. I see many Catholics that do not believe everything the Church believes; yet they feel this is where God has called them. I also have met Catholics that do have differences of opinion; I respect theirs as they do mine – Because we do serve the same God. Then there are those that just don’t get it. And I believe we (every denomination) has them. No one is perfect. I believe God and trust that He is completely in charge of their sanctification. And I pray for them as they pray for me to keep our eyes on what God says – not man. Just as I have many friends in the Protestant denominations that also…are misled. I believe it is very important that we are wise to Satan’s tricks. However my main thought with all of this discussion is where is everyone’s faith that God is Just and the Holy Spirit will guide us to the right answers? Each in our own individual ways. I believe there is a time and a place to discuss these issues. As you know I had mentioned to you before. And no I do not believe in playing pat-a-cake with Gods word, something should be said, but I see a lot of accusations here yet no one to defend it. Switch shoes for a minute, how would you like to be treated if someone disagreed with you. We are not talking again about compromising the gospel; we are talking about your perception vs. others. We are taught in sharing this message with others that we are to do this with wisdom with the grace of the Holy Spirit now residing in us. Not with superiority of speech…. assurance.. Of course! But there is a difference between the two. Think about truly what being assured means.

That said we should still warn each other of drifiting away from the Gospel which is found in the pages of Scripture and not in the supposed infallible teachings of men.

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I agree, however warning and saying open your mouth and say Ahhh…. are two different things. It might be helpful to start asking individual Catholics what they feel about it and then discuss it with them. Rather than trying to understand it without that input.

This is the very reason, however, that the second commandment was declared by God. God is invisible no image, save the actual body of Christ, can properly represent Him on Earth and He desires that we do not create such images. The point of the command is that we not make images of anything and worship or serve them, included in the concept of the Hebrew word that translates to us as "serve" is the idea of paying respect to or honoring them.

When the Israelites made a golden calf in the wilderness and honored it, they were not (in their mind) worshiping an idol but YHWH God, the "God that delivered them from Egypt." God's anger was not against them simply for worshiping a false God, but in reality for attempting to worship Him in such a false manner. Likewise when a Catholic stands before a 32' bronze statue of Mary and asks her for favor, surely he/she is not attempting to get the bronze statue to do something, but that which the statue represents. But as I've explained, this is exactly what God condemns in the second commandment, regardless of wether or not Mary is actually able to hear prayers or answer them.



So it is ok to serve, worship, or pray to something or someone as long as they don't put it above Christ?

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Now, Lockheed you know I never said this. I said we each have our own individual ways of showing our faith. To make that statement clearer. We each are learning in our own individual ways what is pleasing and not pleasing to God. But making mistakes in these areas I do not believe affects salvation unless it is being done with the wrong intent. Each go through stages of learning faith, learning their personal relationship with God on His time in their own ways.

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.; But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH: LUMEN GENTIUM, SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI, NOVEMBER 21, 1964​

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[/indent]The Roman Catholic system is quite different than that which we Baptists, find in Scripture.​

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Your going to hate me for this, but I feel this can be true…. in my studies. Those whom have NOT received the Gospel. A person earnestly seeking… is it how God intended? Not that I believe. However, God does judge mans heart. We have no idea where that could be. Our role here is to be accepting and share truths. With love and respect. It is just Biblical common sense to build relationships. Anyone whom is truly seeking God should not be turned away……because they could be a “Christian”. Earnestly seeking is a good start in my eyes. At least that is what I get from this statement. No I do not believe you can just live a good life and expect salvation. We are not talking about those whom have been given the truth. We are talking about those whom have learned one way their whole life and “Have not received the Gospel. (Again I have more faith in the work of the Holy Spirit than this) But I do believe that you can have a relationship with God, without full understanding of Christ’s Blood. An obviously spiritually immature situation - But I do believe it. And it is a start, isn’t that exciting enough? So what happens that person whom is seeking God, also knows other Christians in their denomination only to meet someone in ours that immediately, first impression belittles what they have known as family. I personally would and did not want to have anything to do with this type of attitude. Imagine this, Muslim walks into church one day for whatever reason. Wishing to serve God. How do you greet them? Do you sling a barrage of “should nots” at them or do you set an example? You cannot change a person’s heart or mind. However you can turn them away. If people are doing those things you mentioned (in the real world) then you are absolutely correct. However, I have yet to meet a Catholic that practices these things in the manner accused. With the exception of purgatory. However I have my thoughts on Hell theory….and I prefer to just say a total separation from God. That is enough of a scare tactic for me. (I have highlighted some statements thinking that if you re-read this with emphasis you might get something different from the statement being made in this quote) It is not that we agree with others completely, we agree to disagree with their assessment. With respect.


I guess I just have a whole lot more faith in the Holy Spirit guiding our spirit than all of this.


Now I want you to read this and think about how it applies here.
1 Corinthians 8:v1-13 NLV
1Now let's talk about food that has been sacrificed to idols. You think that everyone should agree with your perfect knowledge. While knowledge may make us feel important, it is love that really builds up the church. 2Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much. 3But the person who loves God is the one God knows and cares for.
4So now, what about it? Should we eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God and no other. 5According to some people, there are many so-called gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth. 6But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life. 7However, not all Christians realize this. Some are accustomed to thinking of idols as being real, so when they eat food that has been offered to idols, they think of it as the worship of real gods, and their weak consciences are violated. 8It's true that we can't win God's approval by what we eat. We don't miss out on anything if we don't eat it, and we don't gain anything if we do. 9But you must be careful with this freedom of yours. Do not cause a brother or sister with a weaker conscience to stumble. 10You see, this is what can happen: Weak Christians who think it is wrong to eat this food will see you eating in the temple of an idol. You know there's nothing wrong with it, but they will be encouraged to violate their conscience by eating food that has been dedicated to the idol. 11So because of your superior knowledge, a weak Christian,[a] for whom Christ died, will be destroyed. 12And you are sinning against Christ when you sin against other Christians by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong. 13If what I eat is going to make another Christian sin, I will never eat meat again as long as I live--for I don't want to make another Christian stumble.
1 Corinthians 12:v12-29 Please take time to review these verses too.

bigsierra said:

As a protestant, I just kept going back in time. I went from a new independent group, back 500 years to the Presbyterian church (PCA). I felt safe for a while(7 years or so) with my Calvinist doctrines, but then I realized that they were the still new doctrines. The only way to really know what the early Church taught is to go back 2000 or so years and read what the Early Church Fathers, were teaching. They were the ones taught by the apostles. What did they think about baptism? What did they think about the salvation process? Are there still churches that teach those same things? I guess they can be blown off if the church went of the rails in the first few centuries, but that's really hard to believe.

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Is Scripture so incomprehensible that you have to have others translate it? I am neither Calvinistic, nor Arminian. I am neither dispenationalist nor covenantal. I find truth in each of these theological opposite philosophical views of Scripture. I also find much truth in ECF teachings from the late 3rd Century onward (the RCC was founded by Augustine in the late 300's- early 400s AD). But, I don't take my cues from these teachers. I learn what they have to say and then compare it rigorously to Scripture. If it fits and is the best interpretation based on the current revelation from God, then I accept it. Being one of the first churches only means that you were one of the first to start messing things up. We have all messed up theology because we are all sinful creatures and the pure revelation from God is twisted in our minds by Satan's influences on the world. No church has a monopoly on the truth. Check EVERYTHING in your teachings against Scripture from a non-partisan stance with only basic assumptions when going into Scripture (assumptions we should have: Scripture is theologically infallible, God is all-powerful, Christ died for our sins). If we go into Scripture tainted with some dead person's theology at the forefront of our minds, then we only find we think supports the stance and do not find God's truth. Don't put your trust in man. Calvinism has its good points, but it also has its bad points (weak pun intended). Augustine had his good writings, but he also had his bad ones. I am not here to tell you to leave your church and return to your Protestant lifestyle (Baptists are not Protestants), I am here to tell you to leave ANY church that does not focus on Scripture above all else. Scripture is the only book that can hold up to the scrutiny. Looking at Augustine's writings or Barth's writings, or Calvin's writings, or Aquinas' writings will show the records of some great theological inputs. BUT, each has flaws...major flaws. Scripture is the only book and the only group of writers that have been blessed to be flawless. It is our duty to study it and know it and place it above the theologies that are in error. Being first doesn't mean anything. That is why Baptists don't harp on the fact that we too can be traced to the Apostolic lineage, but without the man-made bureaucracy (a Cardinal's words as he was being interviewed on the news). Baptists gain nothing today by standing on the fact that we were there too. It simply means that we were right next to you messing up along throughout the ages.

In short, don't hang your hat on any one church for the wrong reasons. Do it because it is the closest to what God wants and what God has delineated in Scripture and teaches what God put in Scripture rather than what some guy put to paper (speaking about Catholic, Protestant and Baptist theologians alike).

God bless,
Dave

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Praying to saints is certainly NOT truth, let alone asking them to posess you.



Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.




Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.







Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?





Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?






Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Jhn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.





Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.





1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jo 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.



Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.




2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Cr 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2Cr 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.



Act 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.



Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jam 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jam 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



(((((notice above here Elias is mentioned and some history given, but noone says to pray to Elias for he is a righteous man)))

bigsierra said:

Isn't that the justification by the tens of thousands of denominations out there, that they are seeking what HE means,

I believe this to be true to an extent....
and that they are just listening to the Holy Spirit?

In their own way.....
One person forms this way. One forms that way and another, so completely different that it's unrecognizable by the other two.

If we all thought alike on EVERYTHING...where would we be? I believe God uses all things for the greater good.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying anyone seeking Christ isn't Chritian. There is just one "Truth" though and it is as absolute as 2+2 equallying 4, every time. That's why it's called truth. Discernment of what is true is what's tough for most of us.

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It is not *as* tough seeking the truth if we have that solid relationship (personally) with God with prayer and study before we "listen" to anyone. Last time we had a chance to visit, this is also how you believed. This to me is the only way to discern the truth. You are correct there is only one truth, as it has been said before...many paths ......one VERY narrow gate.

I just don't believe Church, as a building is what Christ had in mind as "His Church". I don’t believe that you need to belong to only one particular one for the assistance of the Holy Spirit to guide. Sure we are all a part of fellowship in our different denominations. But belonging to a church will not save you. No matter, which church.

Let's all just agree that we don't share the same gospel. That willful ignorance must end.


Just one of scrores of examples:

“A Catechism for Adults,” (Imprimatur: Samuel Cardinal Stritch, Archbishop of Chicago)

“Will I not be saved by accepting Jesus as my personal Savior?” --

No, I will not be saved by accepting Jesus as my personal Savior, or merely believing in Him. In order to be saved, I must be baptized in the Catholic Church, belong to the One True Church established by Jesus, obey the Ten Commandments, receive the Sacraments, pray, do good works and die with no mortal sin on my soul.

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As many of you know, I could go on here, but quoting actual doctrine from actual sources always gets me in actual trouble.

bleechers said:

Let's all just agree that we don't share the same gospel. ...

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Who's gospel?
There is only one gospel.

mesue said:

Who's gospel?
There is only one gospel.

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Bingo. And two mutually exclusive gospels cannot both be true. One must be a false gospel. I'm not even asking that we argue which is correct here; I am merely asking that if one is of God, then other must be "accursed of God" (Gal 1:6-12; 2 Cor 11).

Pretending we hold to the same gospel is intellectually silly.

bleechers said:

Bingo. And two mutually exclusive gospels cannot both be true. One must be a false gospel. I'm not even asking that we argue which is correct here; I am merely asking that if one is of God, then other must be "accursed of God" (Gal 1:6-12; 2 Cor 11).

Pretending we hold to the same gospel is intellectually silly.

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So what your saying is that when others carry out their faith in different ways, however, loving and serving our God and Christ Jesus......they are not Christians if they are not in agreement do not do it our way?

Somehow this does not make spiritual sense to me.

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